YouGov’s latest poll for the Times has topline figures of CON 42%(+2), LAB 41%(nc), LDEM 7%(nc). Fieldwork was Sunday to Monday, and changes are from last week. While the movement from the last poll is well within the normal margin of error, it’s worth noting that this is the first YouGov poll since the election to show a Conservative lead.

Looking at some of the other results it does suggest a small boost for Theresa May from the progress on Brexit last week, but one that still shows the public judging the government’s negotiating efforts very negatively. 26% of respondents now think the government are doing well at negotiating Brexit (up five points), but 57% still think they are doing badly (down seven points). Asked who has the upper hand in the negotiations so far 50% think the EU are doing better and Britain are accepting their demands, 26% think there has been give and take on both sides and just 4% think Britain has the upper hand.

Of course, this is just one poll done just after some good news for the government. It remains to be seen whether it is replicated in other polls and, if so, whether it lasts or rapidly fades away.

The Times story is here, tabs should be up on the YouGov site tomorrow.


560 Responses to “YouGov/Times – CON 42, LAB 41, LDEM 7”

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  1. Somerjohn

    This passage is from an excellent book called Pie ‘n’ Mash & Prefabs, about growing up in the 1950s and 60s:

    “War, of course, was a similar game [to cowboys and Indians], only fought between the English and the Germans. Although we were all born after the war, its legacy still played a big part in our lives. When I started at school, it had only been over for seven years and some rationing was still in force. All our parents had lived through the nightmare, with many of our fathers having seen active service somewhere and with their own exciting tales to tell. Indeed, many of us had older siblings who had been born during the War and rightly or wrongly there was still an intense feeling of animosity towards Germans generally. No-one seemed to separate Germans from Nazis. As far as the generation that had come through the War was concerned they were the same thing.

    “This feeling of animosity rubbed off on us of course, though I like to think that as my generation grew up we realised that Germans and Nazis were far from the same thing. But when we played those games, it was all very simple: the English were the “goodies” and the Germans were the “baddies”. Absolutely nobody wanted to be a German, but someone had to be for everyone to play the game, so the same rules applied as finding Indians for the Cowboy and Indian games. As well as playing War outside, most boys would draw war pictures in the classroom either in actual art lessons or when there was a bit of spare time. The most popular picture was of a British plane dropping bombs on a German battleship. It made for an exciting picture.

    “All of these feelings about the War and Germans were reinforced by much of the popular culture of the time as films, books, comics, songs, television all owed much to this legacy. There were numerous television programmes presented by generals like Field Marshall Viscount Montgomery and Lieutenant-General Sir Brian Horrocks, and classic films such as The Dam Busters and Reach For The Sky were staples of 1950s cinema.”

  2. @Somerjohn

    “Do you dispute that background? It’s certainly how I remember it.”

    Me too. But perhaps I carried delusions of grandeur still in 1975 when I voted out. I told myself that i was voting against a rich man’s club but perhaps I was hoping to rebuild our influence via presiding semi-imperially over the Commonwealth. The school book I had up to about 11 was called ‘The British Empire – Where, How and Why?’. It’s red cover became blue in the next edition and the name changed to ‘The British Commonwealth – Where, How and Why’. How much the content changed, I don’t know, but the implication was that it wasn’t much more than a rebranding.

    My family were all Brits but I had been lucky enough to holiday in France and some other countries from age 7. As various things became integrated or at least with reduced barriers it all seemed perfectly logical to me. Turned out Germans didn’t wear funny helmets or say Englander Pigdog and in fact were pretty nice people not very different from Brits. It has been a pleasure to be part of all that, as it has to be part of the racial rapprochement.

    I remain passionately opposed to throwing all that away because dodgy foreign billionaires – almost certainly illegally – financed a campaign of lies to persuade a wafer-thin majority made up largely of pensioners to vote for self-harm.

  3. SOMERJOHN

    I think it is a huge & incredible leap from post WW2 comic depiction of Nazis , to a dislike of the EU Political & Economic project .

    The read across is “Old People” who were young in WW2 don’t like the idea of ” the people of Europe working together in the common interest,” today.

    You evidently discount the possibility that :-

    * For some people-including the “old” , there are a variety of ways in which “common interest” can be expressed & facilitated.
    * Old People didn’t have all their powers of intellect, enquiry & decision making frozen in aspic when & as a result of reading 1950s comics.

    I don’t.

    …but then I was born in 1940 -perhaps that made a difference ?:-)

  4. @TOH

    What’s depressing is that people have the time to label others’ thoughtful posts “delusional”, but not the time to justify their barbs with anything recognisable as intelligent thought.

    But then, who cares about issues of war and peace, justice, or the future of their children and grandchildren, when there’s rugby to watch on TV?

  5. Norbold,

    Like many things from the 1950’s and 1960’s, that passage fills me (as an awful Generation Y kid) with an unspeakable horror, akin to what I have when I listen to the Pink Floyd album “The Final Cut” (and not just because it’s musically mediocre).

  6. Or how many people who were young in the interwar years felt about Victorian stuff.

  7. @Colin

    OK, you think it’s a “huge and incredible leap” to suggest that the atmosphere in which 1950s kids grew up might have influenced their attitudes towards the rest of Europe, and thus how they voted in the 2016 referendum.

    Do you have an alternative hypothesis?

  8. Other things that evoke this feeling –

    Political: The spirit of 1968; Vietnam war protesters and supporters; Harold Macmillan; the National Plan; politicians visiting the Soviet Union; Malcolm X; Karl Popper; Edward Heath; Harold Wilson’s pipe; the Suez Crisis.

    Non-political: Carry On films; 1960’s interior design; modernist and brutalist architecture; Bernard Manning; Norman O. Brown; Freudianism; Beano/Dandy jokes; cartoon portrayals of black people from that period; Wimpy burgers; Curry and Chips; bovril.

    I suppose one fairly common theme is the young’s sense of the burdens of past generations, which it’s now time to throw off. The important thing is not to discard the good things from the period, such as the Permissive Society, Dr. Strangelove, and the Eagle.

  9. I mention all this, because it’s how I (as an overeducated young person) feel about a lot of the Leavers’ rhetoric.

  10. Other example: 99.999% of Northern Irish politics (at any time period since the 17th century, at least).

  11. SOMERJOHN

    @”Do you have an alternative hypothesis?”

    About how the over 60’s voted in the Referendum?

    Frankly the continued search for “reasons” why the “other side” had such a failure of intelligence & understanding when “my” side so evidently retained those faculties ; is pointless & divisive-as if we don’t have enough division in UK on the politics front these days.

    But if you insist-aren’t there some basic features of the old & young which always differentiate them?-Life Experience & Idealism for example? . And is the difference in age which you seem to be concentrating your search on the key one?. What about The Prosperous South East & London vs The Midlands and The North. Aren’t these demographics based on relative affluence rather than age?

    Did you see QT last evening? Did you see the disdain on Morgan’s face & the incomprehension on Long-Bailey’s when that eloquent Yorkshireman explained why he held them both in such low regard?

    I know why I abstained in the Referendum.

    I know why my underlying position is Leave.

    I know why I am very concerned about the outcome.

    Explaining all of this to you serves no purpose at all now.

    We just have to get it done as well as possible, and try to engender a sense of what is the best Brexit outcome for the UK-all of the UK.

    Just a small point on the EU-so often unexamined by vociferous Remainers as though this Shining City on THe Hill is without flaw.

    The last EU Summit wasn’t all about Brexit. There were some very interesting topics on the agenda. I followed two in particular-EU integration & Immigration policy.
    On both these counts cans were kicked down the road again.
    In the former case, Macron, & Juncker have both articulated visions which received deep scepticism in Germany , where the formation of a Government is in doubt because of disagreement on EU’s future.
    In the case of Immigration, Tusk’s body language & words were eloquent testimony to the row which has developed over mandatory quotas. The latter may yet be imposed to help the abandoned Italians & Greeks-to be met by predictable rejection from Eastern Europe.

    The EU political & economic Project is not stable. To become stable it will coalesce around THe Eurozone.
    That is a future which would have required UK to consider what it did consider last June.

    For people like me, we are just a little ahead of the inevitable curve.

  12. “For people like me, we are just a little ahead of the inevitable curve.”

    What a counsel of doom.

  13. Despite my continued desire to remain in the EU it is clear that there are incompatible strands within it, largely fired up by a rather manic desire for enlargement at any cost.

    Some East European countries seem more semi-detached – usuitable even – than the UK ever was, in terms of adherence to principles, and some Southern European countries seem unsuitable to have been part of the eurozone.

    Additionally it seems odd to have compulsory quotas for immigrants and refugees which do not have the support of many of the countries and people who have to accept them.

    I’m just glad I’m not a politician. It seems one has to wade through multiple choices, all of which have different problems inherent within them.

  14. By the way, I played cowboys and indians and “english” and germans in war-torn Malta in the early 50s.

    But, over time, I recognised that the Indians were actually the goodies and that people were pretty similar wherever I travelled.

    So I was always in favour of union. But I think there may be something in the theory that British triumphalism played some part in the background processes for some people.

    Mostly though the vote to leave was won because of despair and anger about our OWN government – the referendum was just a stick to use to hit out at “authority” with.

  15. @Colin

    That’ll be a No, then.

  16. Paul Croft: a rather manic desire for enlargement at any cost.

    I’m not sure about that. It was the UK that was keenest on rapid inclusion of the former Comecon countries, for geopolitical rather than Euro-expansionist reasons.

    First, we wanted to cement their switch to “our” side and establish them as stable, prosperous democracies rather than unstable loose canons that might cause problems (as, for instance, Ukraine, Moldova, Transnistria etc remain).

    Second, the UK wanted a wider, rather than deeper, EU. That was seen as a way to slow down, if not derail, the ever closer union project. The idea was that including a load of bolshy, quarrelsome, nationalistic nations unused to democratic give-and-take would put a spanner in the Brussels works.

    You can see these processes at work in the consistent UK support for the accession of Turkey.

    Is the EU keen on further expansion? Well, it would be nice to get the Balkan states to the point where they are grown up enough to join. In their current still-febrile state (in some cases), they remain a threat to each other and peace: it would be nice to defuse that powder keg. Ukraine? Well, long-term perhaps, if democracy takes root and corruption is curbed.

    But I don’t see any great appetite for expansion: rather, for deepening what exists. And have you visited any of the recent accession countries? There’s still work to do, but in most the progress in economic development, living standards, infrastructure and political maturity is quite inspiring.

  17. ” And have you visited any of the recent accession countries? ”

    Wot!! And leave Barnard Castle and my little girls??

  18. @Paul Croft

    Take them with you! That’s what I do with Charlie the dog (whose name and subsequent adventures were at least partly inspired by Steinbeck).

    But better be quick, in case Leave means no leave for possibly de-passported pets.

  19. SOMERJOHN

    @”That’ll be a No, then.”

    That’ll be what you always accuse others of……….then?

    Failing to engage with the issues & viewpoints.

  20. SOMERJOHN
    Isn’t Europe in the same state of flux it’s always been in though? It goes together, falls apart, deepens, widens…
    The Romans put it together, split it in two, then it it fell apart, Karl der Große (Charlemagne if you prefer) pulled it off, the Normans ruled from England all the way to Sicily. the Holy Roman Empire stretched from Austrria and Romania, through Holland all the way to Luxembourg. The Hapsburgs, the Bourbons and other German Royals tried it, Napoleon punched through and created (briefly) the most EU-like version of a United Europe we’ve gad until the current one… and then of course Adolf had a go.

    If there’s no end game as such (which I believe) then I think you can more easily accept that there’s no right or wrong way forward. Things move and those doing the moving have always imagined that their way was the answer that would last forever, and they were always wrong on both counts (and on both sides).

  21. After immigration stops Merkel’s long hegemony in Germany , it brings the far right into Government in Austria.

    Unless the EU learns that voters ultimately want to feel that they can decide who comes to their country , in what numbers & for what reason, this most inconvenient of institutions for Mr Juncker- National Parliaments-will continue to remind it of this desire.

    http://en.rfi.fr/europe/20171216-austrias-conservatives-and-far-right-form-ruling-coalition-promising-tough-stance-im

  22. Colin: That’ll be what you always accuse others of……….then?

    Failing to engage with the issues & viewpoints.

    I simply pointed out then you hadn’t taken up the invitation to provide an alternative hypothesis (or, incidentally, to explain why you had labelled Danny’s thoughts “delusional’). End of discussion, I’d have thought.

    That you then went on to deliver some random thoughts on current political issues in Germany is, as far as I can see, irrelevant to the issue under discussion, which was about the possible causes of underwhelming euro-enthusiasm amongst the over-65s.

  23. @David Colby

    I think the thing that’s different about the EU from previous attempts to create a single political entity is that it’s being done voluntarily, by consensus.

    And while it’s true that nothing is forever, England has been pretty enduring since being stitched together from disparate bits a millennium or so ago. There are no obvious signs of the USA coming apart at the seams. So I see no reason why, over the next couple of centuries, Europe shouldn’t settle down to a stable long-term future. That isn’t to say it necessarily will: of course maintaining unity won’t be easy; it may break up acrimoniously into warring factions, apparently to the satisfaction of some posting here.

  24. As a child growing up in 1940s/50s Aberdeenshire, I do recall the transition from the traditional Scots v English to Cowboys v Indians.

    Was this because there was a shared understanding of the common purpose against the Axis – or just that a cinema opened in the local village, and we got to see films for the first time?

    Despite the war stories in the comics and the stereotyping of “the enemy”, that never seemed to spill over into our play – perhaps because there were a lot of German and Italian POWs working on the farms during and after the war?

    Early experiences do shape our view of the world, but their interaction is so complex, it seems unwise to generalise about generations.

  25. SOMERJOHN

    @”I simply pointed out then you hadn’t taken up the invitation to provide an alternative hypothesis ”

    I did-you clearly didn’t read it.

    @”End of discussion, I’d have thought.”
    ]
    As you wish.

  26. Bill

    On the spirit of 1968: the event that was to have the most far-reaching effect down the years was the Oval Test match. Basil D’Olivera scored 158 and set in motion events that would bring down Apartheid!

  27. My memories of the fifties and sixties was I couldn’t wait to leave school left in 1964 to do a 4yr engineering apprenticeship for most of the 64 onwards I was mainly occupied with motorbikes, birds and booze against a background of fairly heavy rock and roll.
    Politics never really came into my world or that of my friends I look back at that period with a fondness we never had much in terms of money or material things but we were all in the same boat so it didn’t matter much.

  28. In general i think it’s close to foolish to try to define both Leave or remain as one thing or another.

    You can probably break it down into a series of groups and I suppose looking at the Post War elderly, those born around 1940-50 who didn’t experience the war but were influenced by it are an interesting group.

    For me if there is a motivation it is less about the war that the disparity between the Britain they were taught about and the one they found themselves living in. Yes there was “The Victor!” and “Commando” comics, but their was also the Famous five and the Secret Seven, Swallows and Amazons and Oliver Twist.

    There we educated in Schools where Britains place in the world as a world power and force for good was taken as fact.

    They saw us play a role in Korea but then Suez and the whole Cold War and relative decline of the UK globally.

    They also have endured one of the most profound changes in society any generation has.

    From rationing to abundance, no bananas to fresh flowers from Kenya all year round, from the first TV’s to Neflixs from a handful of 78’s on a stereogram to 20,000 tracks on an iPod, from being the first house in the street to have a phone to even kid to having a phone that gives access to more information that there was in their whole town when they were in their teens.

    The pace and scale of change has been phenomenal.

    One of the things that came up again and again was “Taking our Country Back” or ” this isn’t the Country I Remember!”.

    Not so much nostalgia for a world they had lost as a feeling that society was going in the wrong direction.

    That doesn’t make then racist or homophobic, although their attitudes might have the same effect, but more that they suffered like us all from loss aversion, they mourned the passing on a more certain time where their attitudes were the norm and not subject to revision or challenge.

    Along with the vast material and physical changes they had seen their has been a huge increase in the diversity of society a move away from “Right and Proper!” to “anything Goes!”

    In that respect a desire to stop the clock and get back to basics or to restore “British values!” is understandable….but futile.

    The EU may well have appeared an example of where we had gone wrong, but it was really just a symbol of how thee world and international relations had changed from an age of a few great powers and their colonies and spheres of influence to an UN of nearly 150 sovereign states.

    Whether we are in the EU or not the nature of the world isn’t going to change, there is no going back. Equally we live in an age of global culture and travel were what drives change is the freedom of movement created by the open nature of the modern world.

    One way or another we will continue to be more diverse and multicultural society and “controlling our Borders!” might give the impression of control but it would particularly change or slow the direction of travel.

    Leave supporters may see Brexit as a victory, but it’s really a minor skirmish in a war that is already lost.

    Brexit represent not so much a rejection of the EU as a stand against unwanted change. In the end by 2020 0r so although we will be a little worse off in real terms not that much will have changed.

    Our influence will be diminished and the direction of travel for the UK will still be inexorably tied to that of the EU.

    Despite the believe of Brexiteers that we are taking a new road we will be heading to the same [lace as before.

    Trump supporters may be emboldened in the US, the Tea party and the Evangelicals thinking they are on the verge and taking the Country back, but over the next decade the trends of the last few will continue.

    Church attendances will fall, the number of people with no religion will rise as will the number of immigrants and Spanish speakers. There will be more mixed marriages, more single parent families, more same gender couples.

    The last month has seen us go almost seamlessly from “No Deal is better than a Bad Deal!” to “Any Deal is a Good Deal!”

    Brexiteers have gone from “Walk Away!” to “Victory!” because what matters is that we leave and the terms don’t really matter.

    They will happily acquiesces to a $40bn bill they called blackmail a few weeks ago, as long as we get out.

    That’s why on the main issues of the economics or the future relationship they are so vague or reluctant to engage, because for them it isn’t the issue. the details don’t matter because for them the whole thing is largely symbolic.

    They have taken a stand and feel vindicated and as to the difficulties and practicalities, they are bye and bye.

    Peter.

  29. @Colin

    So if you maintain you supplied an alternative hypothesis, I guess this must be it:

    But if you insist-aren’t there some basic features of the old & young which always differentiate them?-Life Experience & Idealism for example? . And is the difference in age which you seem to be concentrating your search on the key one?. What about The Prosperous South East & London vs The Midlands and The North. Aren’t these demographics based on relative affluence rather than age?

    This looks more like four questions than a hypothesis, but let’s try to boil it down into one. How about:

    The stark difference in voting pattern in the referendum between under 65s and over 65s can be explained by intrinsic characteristics of these age groups, such as greater life experience amongst the old and idealism amongst the young.

    (We can’t include your suggestion of geographical distribution and affluence as alternative explanations, since what we are trying to account for in this hypothesis is just the age/voting link. You are offering this hypothesis as an alternative explanation for the voting of the over-65s, remember).

    If I’ve summarised your proposed hypothesis fairly (and a pithier version might be: the young are idealists, the old are realists) then my observation would be that it’s so generalised as to be meaningless. But I’d be interested to see you develop the idea further , with evidence in support.

  30. @Peter Cairns

    I think you’ve had a better stab at an alternative explanation for the over-65 brexit surge than @Colin did. Perhaps it’s true that this age group always tends to be more influenced by nostalgia and a sense of loss than younger people, whose focus is more on the future than the past.

    If you’re right, then we might expect each successive cohort of pensioners to display similar conservative (small c) tendencies; if it’s more to do with specific cultural influences on the young in the 1940s/50s. then we might expect the anti-European feeling to decline as the current cohort is progressively replaced. Time will tell.

  31. TURK

    @”My memories of the fifties and sixties”

    Its interesting to try & distil it isn’t it?

    Difficult though because the very business of growing into an adult is so full of new experiences.

    But it is interesting to try.

    If I shut my eyes it is the music & the football- hearing Bill Haley played at a school dance I remember a fleeting thought that the teachers might take the record off. Buddy Holly is another indelible revelation. His death , following the Munich crash seemed like our Brave New World had suddenly ended.

    The Busby Babes were an inspiration for teenagers in the 50’s. I remember watching open mouthed on a friend’s tv, the Eintracht-Real Madrid Final of 1960. Di Stefano, Puskas & Gento -they were men from a different planet playing a different -sublime-game . That Pegg, Taylor, Byrne & the others could have taken a British team to such heights made the aircrash such a bitter blow.

    Juke Boxes & Chrome-in Milk Bars !!. Did we really chill out drinking milk ???

    Those are my instant memories of the fifties & sixties. !

  32. SOMERJOHN

    @”. You are offering this hypothesis as an alternative explanation for the voting of the over-65s, remember).”

    No-what I have been trying to suggest to you is that there is no single pithy reason which will provide you with the explanation you seek as to why those older people voted for something you find so inexplicable.

    Do we know if “older people” in Metropolitan London, and the affluent SE mostly voted Leave ?

    Presumably there were older people “up north” in the areas of majority leave -joined in that vote by their younger relatives it would appear. Have they engaged in some quaint northern process by which tales of THe Empire & Bashing the Hun have converted their Northern youngsters to jingoistic hatred of the EU?

    I commend OldNat’s opinion to you :-

    “Early experiences do shape our view of the world, but their interaction is so complex, it seems unwise to generalise about generations.”

    That apart -what is the purpose of this quest for the evil source of Euro Scepticism?.

    What does it achieve ?

  33. Opinium poll for the Observer

    LAB 41 (-1)
    CON 39 (-1)
    LDEM 7 (+1)
    UKIP 6 (+1)

    No dramatic changes there, perhaps interesting to see that the two main parties are declining a touch, any slight swing from LAB to CON that has occurred since last Friday isn’t seen here and UKIP’s VI has risen to 6% (is that the highest UKIP VI since the election?). Only one poll and well within the margin of error though.

  34. Guardian article has a few more stats. Tories seen as more divided by Labour. No mention of the date of the fieldwork but at least some of it must have been after the vote on Wednesday i would have thought.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/16/brexit-row-leaves-voters-thinking-tories-are-more-divided-than-labour?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

  35. TURK

    You got me thinkin’ !

    If I were to try and distil it down to an essence I would say that in those two decades( more the 50s for me) my friends & I must have felt as though something fundamental was changing -and for the better-that we weren’t destined for lives as a re-run of our parents’ lives .
    Big Things were happening to bring sunshine into the gloom.

    Which was why Munich & The Day The Music Died were such huge shocks for me.

  36. This research argues that subjective social status is a cause of the Brexit vote

    “We think there is real promise in approaching support for the populist right as a problem of social integration, born of economic and cultural developments that have led some groups of people to feel increasingly marginal to mainstream society…..

    Since social recognition is closely-linked to having a decent job, addressing those concerns will require efforts to create such jobs and to make existing jobs more decent. But it will also require efforts on the symbolic plane of political discourse to ensure that people in all walks of life are recognised as valued members of society.”

  37. I really do wish that condascending remainers could stop describing people who voted leave as being anti-European.

    I voted to leave bacause our continued membership of the EU was becoming a national embarrassment. We were never EU federalists, and never will be.

  38. COLIN

    “If I shut my eyes it is the music & the football- hearing Bill Haley played at a school dance ”

    I played a week in cabaret with Bill Haley and the Ronettes many years ago.

    His band were brilliant and lovely – he wasn’t though we still got his autograph and that of the band, which I still have to this day.

    They followed us on the programme and each evening that we [my brother and me] finished our set with an Everly’s song, and they all joined in backstage.

    They also kindly [and incorrectly] said:

    “You guys will make it right to the top.”

  39. Colin/Danny,

    Thanks for your replies your respective first paragraphs do seem to be at odds re the EU requiring a deal before the 2 year transition or their expecting negotiations within that period.

    FWIW – I am with Colin in thinking that no final deal is possible by October 2018 so the deal will end up being an interim arrangement while negotiations are concluded. A further implementation period after the interim 2 years would be somewhat annoying for many leavers I would expect but it may well end up occurring.

    The pretence of aiming to reach a final deal prior to the 2 years to make it an implementation period may well be maintained well in to 2018.

    Staying in THE Customs Union and SM or not in the 2 year period has to be agreed soon and may open up fault lines in Labour’s carefully constructed approach up to now. Tory ones of course will be even more evident than now perhaps?

  40. Independent:

    “The British public has swung behind staying in the EU by its largest margin since the referendum, with those backing Remain outstripping Leavers by ten points, a new poll has revealed.

    The exclusive survey for The Independent by BMG Research showed 51 per cent now back remaining in the union, while 41 per cent want Brexit.

    Once “don’t knows” were encouraged to choose one way or the other, or excluded, the Remain lead rises to 11 points. Either way, it is the biggest gap since the June 2016 vote.”

  41. Colin: No-what I have been trying to suggest to you is that there is no single pithy reason which will provide you with the explanation you seek as to why those older people voted for something you find so inexplicable.

    You misunderstand entirely.

    I’m not seeking an explanation. I was simply trying to get you to justify your offensive description as “delusional” of Danny’s suggestion that older people might have been influenced in their anti-European views by the cultural influences when they grew up.

    If you thought his view was so stupid, had you got a better idea: that was the nature of my quest.

    As expected, you hadn’t. It’s not the source of euro-scepticism I seek, but rather to hold to account those who describe others as delusional without being able to justify that view. (And you still haven’t explained why you caled it delusional, btw).

  42. @ NICKP

    “Once “don’t knows” were encouraged to choose one way or the other, or excluded, the Remain lead rises to 11 points. Either way, it is the biggest gap since the June 2016 vote.”

    Yes, I remember those polls just before the referendum too.

    It was going to be a landslide for Remain.

  43. PAUL CROFT

    Thanks -nice story :-)

  44. JIM JAM

    @”The pretence of aiming to reach a final deal prior to the 2 years to make it an implementation period may well be maintained well in to 2018.”

    imo that would be totally unsustainable. If TM tries it & it becomes obnvious that no detailed TA will be ready by Mar 2019-UKplc will start to pack up shop next year.

    And she has to spell it out to Bone & Rees Mogg-tell them WHY we are having a transition period-a period of NO change to allow PREPARATION. Hammond was right to start getting that message out.

  45. NickP
    That’s an interesting democratic challenge emerging there. I hope and expect the trend to continue.
    I thought Peter Cairns’ long post was both most interesting and insightful.
    Thinking back – as someone born in 1952 but slow to mature – I think the sense of all being right with the world and how lucky I was to be born British, persisted until the advent of the Thatcher Government and the harsh rhetoric (as well as harsh programmes) that it entailed. The mid to late seventies, abhorred by many and when the country was in a phase of (IMO unjustified) self-loathing was an era when I was as happy as I have ever been. Partly this was due to my age, but I saw it as yes, the country had problems but we would muddle through, we still counted on the world stage because of our armed forces and our formidable manufacturing. we were going through a bad patch but like Alastair Cook would no doubt regain our form in due course.
    The 80s changed all that. My instinct is to blame Thatcherism and I suspect others’ instinct is to blame the EU.
    In reality, it was just the world moving on.

  46. @JONESINBANGOR
    “Once “don’t knows” were encouraged to choose one way or the other, or excluded, the Remain lead rises to 11 points. Either way, it is the biggest gap since the June 2016 vote.”
    Yes, I remember those polls just before the referendum too.
    It was going to be a landslide for Remain.’

    Really, my recollection is that shortly before the referendum the polls were close. Most gave a small lead to remain with a couple giving it to leave. Certainly can’t remember many polls forecasting a landslide for remain.

  47. I think you would definitely all benefit from reading Pie ‘n’ Mash & Prefabs! Still time to add it to your Christmas wish list and get it in time for Christmas Day.

    It covers everything being said above about that generation from the influence of the War to rock ‘n’ roll, Suez, Kennedy assassination, The Beatles and what made that immediate post War generation what it was and is.

    Thank you.

  48. Colin

    I do have a memory from those times of my cousin saying there was a good band on at Kimbles ballroom in Portsmouth we went along , I remember they opened with “Communication breakdown” I’d never heard of them I mean with a name like Led Zeppelin how far were they going to go.

  49. @COLIN

    “After immigration stops Merkel’s long hegemony in Germany , it brings the far right into Government in Austria.”

    You do realise that Merkel has never had a majority?

    And that the far right forming part of a coalition in Austria is nothing new?

    (I find it quite interesting that in Austria it was the former liberal party, FPÖ, that morphed into the far right…)

  50. “NORBOLD
    I think you would definitely all benefit from reading Pie ‘n’ Mash & Prefabs! Still time to add it to your Christmas wish list and get it in time for Christmas Day.

    It covers everything being said above about that generation from the influence of the War to rock ‘n’ roll, Suez, Kennedy assassination, The Beatles and what made that immediate post War generation what it was and is.

    Thank you.”

    Do you do discount for “friends” is what I want to know………

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