Sunday polls

Opinium’s latest voting intention figures are CON 41%(+2), LAB 43%(-2), LDEM 5%(nc), UKIP 5%(nc). Theresa May’s net job approval stands at minus 21, Jeremy Corbyn’s at plus 4 (though May has regained a small lead on who people think would make the better Prime Minister, 36% to Corbyn’s 33%).

Asked about Theresa May’s future, a third of people think she should resign straight away, 16% think she should go after Brexit negotiations are complete, 8% just before the next general election and 22% that she should remain and fight the next general election. Answers to this are heavily partisan, as you might expect: a hefty majority of Labour voters would like May to go now, only 9% of Tory voters. 62% of Tory voters would like her to remain PM until either shortly before the election (14%) or to fight the election (48%). Tabs for the Opinium poll are here.

There was also a Survation poll in the Mail on Sunday with topline figures of CON 39%(nc), LAB 41%(-4), LD 8%(+1), UKIP 6%(+2). Changes are since Survation’s last online poll in mid-June, rather than their last telephone poll which showed a small Tory lead. Theresa May also still leads as best PM here, 43% to Corbyn’s 35%.

Survation also asked questions about Theresa May’s future, though their’s was a simpler should she stay or go question.45% would like her to resign, 40% would like her to stay. Again, responses are overwhelmingly split down partisan lines: 77% of Lab voters would like her to go, 78% of Tory voters would like her to stay). Asked about who should succeed her if she did go, Boris Johnson leads on 22% ahead of David Davis on 15%. 46% of people say don’t know. Questions like this don’t give us that much insight because of low public awareness of the options. The most interesting ones there asked who people would prefer in run offs between two potential leaders – between Davis and Johnson Davis wins by 36% to Johnson’s 30%. Paired against Philip Hammond Johnson only just wins, 34% to 33%, though he beats Amber Rudd by 38% to 27%. There are still lots of don’t knows, but I’m conscious that a few years ago Johnson’s popularity and celebrity would probably have seen him easily winning all three questions at a trot. The shine looks as if it may have come off Boris Johnson. Tabs for the Survation poll are here.

Finally there was a BMG poll in the Independent asking about the public sector pay cap. Questions like this are tricky – most people have huge sympathy for “frontline” public sector workers like nurses and firefighters, so the social desirability bias towards saying you’d pay a little more to give them a rise is huge (it’s what we tend to call a “drowning puppy” question in the office, as in “would you pay more tax to save this drowning puppy?”). If anything, I’m surprised only 56% said they’d be willing to pay more in tax to fund a pay rise above 1% for only occupations like firefighters, police officers, paramedics and nurses. More generally, 69% of people said the public sector pay cap should end, but asked if they’d be willing to pay more tax to give a rise to “non-emergency” occupations the split was pretty even, 42% said they would, 41% would not..

Opinium also asked about the public sector pay cap in their poll. 53% of people support ending it, 21% of people would be opposed. They also asked about it on specific jobs. Questions like this are, to some degree, just reflections of how popular or valued a role is (as well as how well paid people think it currently is). Almost 70% of people wanted the pay cap ended for nurses, 60% or more for the armed forces, police and fire service. Teachers was 56%, followed by doctors on 53%. For dentists it was only 38%. I’m intrigued about what Opinium would have found if they’d asked about less obviously sympathetic public sector jobs: local government planning officers perhaps, benefit assessors, immigration officers, refuse collectors, traffic engineers, taxmen…


480 Responses to “Sunday polls”

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  1. @ Charles

    It appears to me that compromise is not possible between those at the extreme ends of the debate. I consider that TOH is at the extreme Brexit end in that he essentially wants no connection with Europe (other than trade as with other nations). There are others at the extreme remain end who continue to hope that the Brexit process will be halted. Belonging to the EEA would be anathema to both extremes.

    If there is a compromise it is going to upset both these positions. However, polling recently tends to show rather more willingness to compromise amongst the general population which seems to indicate that belonging to the EEA might be an acceptable compromise. The problem it seems to me is that in Westminster this sort of compromise could be scuppered by the unstable political situation!

  2. @Paul Croft

    “Anyway, when I mentioned this [I mean “carped” about it] I was told that these disagreements, seemingly on a tape loop, could be very informative.”

    ————-

    Really? Who did that? I mean, I’d be happy to take the blame myself only I just said that sharing info. (in that particular case predictions) could be useful, I didn’t say it was as useful if people don’t actually want to share info., so where did this heinous crime occur? Wouldn’t like for you to worry (or carp) needlessly!!

  3. CHARLES

    I like you as I said the other day, but you are trying my patience a little. I have made it very clear that I don’t want to keep discussing my views, it’s boring, as Valerie has rightly said and it changes nobodies view. Personally I am not looking for compromise I just want us to leave the EU in full as I believe it is in the UKs best interest.

    I have already said a number of times that I accept the need for an arbiter in some instances going forward. I have also said it cannot be the ECJ, a red line for me and it appears the PM, and that it has to be a new court or similar body with representatives from both parties.

    I have gone further as I have also said that once we have left the EU I want us out of the ECHR and it replaced by a UK Bill of Rights and Responsibilities and I emphasise the responsibilities deliberately.

    I hope that helps Charles. In reply to PatrickBrian last night I even gave a brief description of why I think as I do and the benefits I see.

  4. WB

    “It appears to me that compromise is not possible between those at the extreme ends of the debate. I consider that TOH is at the extreme Brexit end in that he essentially wants no connection with Europe (other than trade as with other nations).”

    I think that is an over simplification of my views. I am for example, very much in favour of NATO and I believe it to be the main reason why there has been little conflict in Europe since WW2.

  5. If Howard just stated his view and left it at that, he prolly wouldn’t get challenged. But he keeps restating his views and, crucially, challenges others, frequently offering up rebuttals. So although I’ve not gotten very involved myself in trying to get much Brexity info. from Howard, or from anyone really, it’s not really a surprise if he gets challenged in turn.

  6. @ TOH

    I don’t mean to misrepresent your views, I was referring of course to political structures within Europe and not broader issues, if I am wrong about your ability to compromise those views with those at the other end of the argument I apologise.

  7. CHARLES
    Lord Kerr, the author of the EU Article 50, with 60 other prominent figures in Scotland, including George Robertson and Henry McLeish, this morning called in the Herald, reported in The Times, for Brexit to be halted, warning that Brexit has seriously damaged the UK;s international reputation,and demanded a UK-wide debate about calling a halt to the process. They say that “We see our society, economy and politics becoming ever more undermined due to the impact of Brexit.”
    On migration alone, I believe the conflictsof interest involved in Brexit are already causing a serious divide between business and Westminster, in which the drop in the value of the pound and the threat to skills provision to industry and to the service section are demonstrating both the facts and assumptions on which a Leave campaign was fought and the present position of the Government are seriously at fault.

  8. So no interest in Italian polls on this site?

  9. I would be very wary in drawing parallels between Brexit and the five star movement. The party is chronically misunderstood by the UK press (as was the referendum they had a little while back – the narrative in the UK press was so horribly politically illiterate). The movement is quite different. This FT article is instructive:

    https://www.ft.com/content/553bcf9a-d326-11e6-b06b-680c49b4b4c0

    Essentially, they aren’t anti-EU so much as anti-establishment. Their support is higher in blue collar workers and ‘labourers’, and low-paid workers generally, like Brexit. But unlike Brexit, the party also does very well with students, and very badly with the retired.

    This, in my view, reflects the mish-mash of ideologies that the party represents. An excerpt from Wikipedia:

    “The “five stars” are a reference to five key issues for the party: public water, sustainable transport, sustainable development, right to Internet access, and environmentalism. The party also advocates E-democracy, direct democracy,[25] the principle of “zero-cost politics”,[26] degrowth,[27] and nonviolence.[28] In foreign policy, the M5S have condemned military interventions of the West in the Greater Middle East (Afghanistan, Iraq,[29] Libya) as well as any notion of American intervention in Syria.[30]”

    However, they’re also anti-immigration and Eurosceptic, but not quite anti-EU in the same way UKIP were. See this quote from the FT article: “Mr Monanni believes the movement’s anti-euro stance is aimed at “provoking European institutions and exhorting them to represent people’s interests” rather than pushing for Italy to leave the union”.

    I sometimes think of the party as a cross between UKIP and the Green Party. Their principles and ideology seem like they have a lot more in common with the Greens, but the leadership (i.e. Beppe Grillo) comes across as a figure similar to Trump or Farage. And whilst there’s some overlap, they certainly don’t appeal to the same demographics as Trump/Brexit did.

    Their success on a national level, therefore, is not as relevant to Brexit as one may initially suspect. Further, many polls have shown them well ahead in the past (much more than the 1-2 points they are currently), and look what happened just a month ago:

    https://www.ft.com/content/b8d1cf74-4ef4-11e7-bfb8-997009366969

    Their popularity may be a bit overblown.

    Nonetheless I think the party is a really fascinating political animal, with plenty of unique qualities. In many ways, they’re the anti-En Marche, being what appears to be economically left and socially slightly right (should be noted they’re progressive on issues such as e.g. LGBT rights). Perhaps this is why nobody understands them – we’re all quick to pigeonhole each political party into something representing a concept we understand. When the five star movement is something really quite different.

  10. I should note that ‘de-growth’ is a very radical policy indeed. Most would see it as radically left-wing (this is essentially the Green Party’s stance – i.e. growth incompatible with sustainable environment). But this is combined, interestingly, with anti-immigrationism.

  11. Sorry, forgot to add: the Italian equivalent of UKIP would more likely be Lega Nord (indeed UKIP also had similar levels of support to them before GE2017).

  12. OH: “There is absolutely nothing illogical about my beliefs,”

    Well, you have consistently refused to explain the logic underpinning your beliefs, on the grounds that you are too busy.

    Instead, you just restate those beliefs.

    Until you do that, I have to put your beliefs in the same category as religious faiths, be they Islam, Christianity or Voodoo. I respect your right to hold those beliefs. Which might be codified as:

    I believe in Brexit, the saviour almighty,
    creator of heaven in England.
    I believe in Theresa May, Brexit’s only daughter, our PM,
    who was conceived by the UKIP spirit,
    born of the middle classes,
    suffered under David Cameron,
    and was buried in the Home Office,
    the home of the brain dead.
    On the 23rd day she rose again;
    she ascended into heaven,
    she is seated at the right hand of the Rupert,
    and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
    I believe in the Holy Brexit,
    a wholly Disunited Europe,
    the communion of the Empire,
    the forgiveness of exit fees,
    the resurrection of Britannia,
    and the Brexit everlasting. Amen.

  13. JOHN PILGRIM

    @” I believe the conflictsof interest involved in Brexit are already causing a serious divide between business and Westminster,”

    I don’t know whether that is true or not.
    But I wouldn’t be surprised. Because “Business” has been able to recruit cheap Labour at will from the EU without accountability for its social & economic effects .
    An EU in which economies are far from “convergent”. An EU in which the huge disparity in living standards has given rise to waves of internal economic migration caused by the simple desire for financial survival. And the UK’s jobs engine has been a magnet for these people. Even Corbyn acknowledges that importing cheap Labour via the EU Free Movement route has not been in the interests of some UK workers & their pay levels.

    So perhaps it is time-not for the flow of immigrant workers to be stopped-but for UK’s businesses to explain what they require & why-and for UK’s elected representatives in Parliament to decide if they can have it & be answerable to their voters in villages towns & cities who may be impacted by all the aspects of large scale local immigration.

    Meanwhile UK voters can observe the farce of EU Free Movement just now. A system of uncontrolled internal migration within external borders which aren’t controlled either. External borders under daily siege by waves of what Macron calls “economic” immigration from Sub Sahran Africa. External borders with Turkey where the agreement on migrant control with Turkey has never worked & which dictator in the making Erdogan is on the point of tearing up.

    So UK voters can observe Austrian troops being deployed to their border with Italy to stem the northward influx of migrants armed with EU travel permits with which a besieged & abandoned Italy has threatened its unhelpful fellow members of the European “family”.

    And UK voters can make a judgement about EU’s Free Movement obsession in the context of a failure of EU Economic Convergence, a failure of EU Fiscal Union, & a failure of external border control in face of mass economic migration from two Continents.

  14. If 5Star & Northern League co-operate , and get anywhere near power in Italy it will be a timebomb for EU.

    Italian Debt for starters.

    But also migration-no wonder Renzi is trawling the Northern League playbook as Italy copes with the exodud from Africa:-

    ““We do not have the moral duty to welcome [migrants]. But we have the moral duty to help them. And to help them for real in their own homes.”

    Matteo Renzi
    July 2017

  15. Colin: “Meanwhile UK voters can observe the farce of EU Free Movement just now.”

    Like many (most?) people, you don’t seem to distinguish between free movement of labour and free movement of people.

    Free movement of people is what exists between the UK and Ireland. Citizens of either country can move freely between the two and take up residence, whether they have a job or any means of support, or not.

    Free movement of labour, on the other hand, is one of the EU’s ‘four freedoms’. It allows citizens of any member to travel to another for the purpose of finding, or taking up, work. But it is not an automatic right to residence; if no work has been found after 3 months, the host government can eject the job seeker.

    What you are disparaging is the attempts to deal with the arrival of boatloads of illegal immigrants. Those people would be arriving with or without the EU. The many people who smuggle themselves into the UK do not do so because we are EU members, and they will not magically disappear when we leave.

  16. Just wanted to remind people (re. CambridgeRachel’s post) that Opinium is now showing 41% in favour of a second referendum.

    If, and it’s a big ‘if’, that figure goes up to 60% before the end of a mooted transition period, then it would be very difficult for any government to refuse.

    Not saying anything about the morality of such a move, just the practical politics.

    Maybe big changes to our country, e.g. the Iraq war, EU membership etc should not be entered into without a substantial majority in favour.

  17. Somerjohn- very, very good. :-)

  18. SOMERJOHN

    Rationalise it as you will.

    Until the EZ recognises the need for Fiscal ( & thus Political) Union , divergent economies, and large economic imbalances will drive internal migration flows-not efficiency of manpower deployment.

    I recognise the scale of the immigration problem faced by Greece & Italy-the Greeks & the Italians think that the EU isn’t even at first base in addressing it.

    Europe cannot-in my view-absorb these numbers indefinitely without serious economic & social effects. And there will be ( are !!) politicians in Europe who will step forward when people are angry enough. And they are politicians which you will then castigate as beyond the pale.

  19. @CambridgeRachel I am prepared to be very interested in Italian polls but sadly at the moment I lack the necessary background knowledge.

    @John Pilgrim – I agree that Brexit is seriously dividing all sorts of groups. The difficulty is that the leave campaign feels more like a slogan (What was it that Pericles praised the Athenians for not being – hettomenoi tou rematos or something like that?) By contrast the remain campaign lacks a slogan (or more seriously a passionate belief in the possibilities of European collaboration) and offers instead a series hgihly uncomforftable scenarios. The latter do not touch the heart of the leavers’ emotional case, and make them more anxious, and more aggressive towards remainers and more angry with the EU. How on earth does one get out of this mess? .

  20. CHARLES

    @”By contrast the remain campaign lacks a slogan ”

    Is there still a “Campaign” to remain in EU?

    By what means does that campaign group propose to achieve it’s objective now?

  21. Somerjohn

    “Well, you have consistently refused to explain the logic underpinning your beliefs, on the grounds that you are too busy.”

    Exactly, I have better things to do that waste my mind trying to change yours. I understand that’s not possible and I am not interested in doing that anyway.

    “Until you do that, I have to put your beliefs in the same category as religious faiths, be they Islam, Christianity or Voodoo. I respect your right to hold those beliefs. Which might be codified as:”

    Exactly how I see your own views, and I also respect your right to hold them. The difference between us is that I would not dream of attempting to make fun of your views by writing a religious parody, which does not offend me since i have no religion, but may well offend others.

    On occasion you have accused me of lacking self awareness, well I think that applies to you in spades.

  22. Anyone born between 6/4/70 and 5/4/78 ?.

    Government has just announced a phased increase in the state pension age from 67 to 68..

    Presumably the DUP saw sight of this.

  23. Talking of slogans, I always thought that the winner of the DT’s reader’s competition for a suitable slogan for Gordon Brown’s vision of ‘Britishness’ was very funny – “No slogans – we’re British”.

  24. CHARLES

    ” How on earth does one get out of this mess? .”

    By accepting the result of the referendum, gettig behind the government and supporting then in their attempt to leave with a good deal. I am not against European collaboration, I am all for it, but not as part of the EU.

  25. carfrew

    Yeah, I must stop speed-reading your posts and try to remember the details better.

    Thing is I was just practising my predictions [I understand making them is a useful exercise . . .]

    I was a bit concerned by your recent absence so predicted [quietly to myself] that if I hinted at your name then you would respond before the end of the page…

    It’s nice to know that all is well.

  26. TOH: ” I would not dream of attempting to make fun of your views by writing a religious parody, which does not offend me since i have no religion, but may well offend others.”

    Ah, so you’re that bloke who walked out of ‘Life of Brian’.

    Actually, one of the values of this country that I do prize highly is the freedom to make jokes about religion. Let’s hope Brexitland doesn’t recriminalise blasphemy. Although nothing would surprise me.

  27. CARFREW

    “If Howard just stated his view and left it at that, he prolly wouldn’t get challenged. But he keeps restating his views and, crucially, challenges others, frequently offering up rebuttals. ”

    Don’t worry; I’ll continue to do that as long as others keep posting against Brexit. I never mind being challenged unless people are rude or unpleasant about it. With my own rebuttals I try not to be rude but accept that I fail occasionally.

    Tony Ebert

    “Just wanted to remind people (re. CambridgeRachel’s post) that Opinium is now showing 41% in favour of a second referendum.”
    In the same way I would like to remind people that in the ICM poll which is more recent only 32% want a second referendum whereas 46% support leaving the EU regardless of what happens in the negotiations.

  28. SOMERJOHN

    “Actually, one of the values of this country that I do prize highly is the freedom to make jokes about religion. ”

    That does not surprise me it fits with my view of you.

  29. No doubt tedious for some readers that there is a blog post at the Centre on Constitutional Change dealing with whether the powers devolved will come back to, and be retained by, Westminster government. The short answer is “Yes”

    “There has been no indication of what powers might, at a later stage, be transferred back to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The extent of common provisions needed across the UK will not be clear until the UK’s future trading relationship with the EU has been settled. Future free trade agreements with non-EU countries will also impinge on devolved matters. It is likely, therefore, that the UK Government will retain the key powers indefinitely and devolve only cautiously. It seems unlikely that the UK Government will transfer them all back or that the Welsh proposal for joint policy making will be adopted. The administrative responsibility, however, will remain with the devolved administrations as they have the machinery in place. This introduces a principle that has, so far, been applied sparingly in the UK, of administrative devolution without legislative powers. It moves us closer to a hierarchical model of devolution, in which the broad principles set in London and the details filled in across the nations. ”
    http://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/blog/devolve-or-not-devolve

  30. TOH: “That does not surprise me it fits with my view of you.”

    i regard that as a compliment, so thank you. I’m pretty sure that a polling question asking:

    Do you think the freedom to joke about religion in Britain is (a) a good thing or (b) a bad thing?

    Would indicate that your views are in a small minority. Perhaps such polling exists?

    But I do wonder what conception of Britain you are defending if it has no room for jokes about religion. Maybe one that isn’t a million miles from a faith-based caliphate? Or should we just rename you The Other Oliver (Cromwell)?

  31. @Paul Croft

    Yeah, it’s no revelation that I’m usually following the board even if not posting, one tries not to miss stuff, which can save peeps’ time you see.

  32. @ToH

    “Don’t worry; I’ll continue to do that as long as others keep posting against Brexit.”

    —————-

    And long may it continue. Tbh one learns quite a bit about your views from these rebuttals, rather than when you’re challenged directly.

  33. Sam

    That seems the inevitable consequence of the rules being made by a single polity, instead of being negotiated by the governments of 27m or more, which ensure that there is a measure of give and take.

    I see the Welsh and Scottish Governments have invoked the formal dispute resolution process in response to the UK Government / DUP deal.

    For the same reason that the significant EU powers are likely to be repatriated to Westminster/Whitehall, and no further, I’d guess that there will be no resolution of the dispute!

  34. Forgot the link to the dispute resolution process statement

    https://news.gov.scot/news/uk-governmentdup-deal-1

  35. “Forgot the link to the dispute resolution process statement”

    —————

    How long have you been waiting to get that into a conversation?

  36. @CHARLES

    I believe you have captured the issue succinctly:

    I have always said that the remain campaign was shouting facts and scenarios at leavers and leavers were shouting emotion and optimism at remainers

    If you take leave campaign is was a myriad of possibilities we could do trade deals, we would stride across the world we would look optimistically out into future with none of weight of the EU on our backs, it was exceptionaly flexible we could have EEA membership, we don’t have to leave the single market etc

    Facing the other side was not a future of the EU, but a fear of the EU dealing with issues. how to cop with fiscal transfers, which then leads to how to do tat in a democratic way which leads to political union issues which leads to well how do keep that balanced.

    it is not that the problems of leave were not exposed it is that they seemed easier than that of remaning in the EU. We never had this type of debate. Instead we had conflation of freedom of movement with the migration crisis such that it is from Libya and Syria which are completely different things

    Our politics is adversarial and as such we rarely debate what we want from anything but a tribalist perspective. before I campaigned for remain, I looked at the issue of the UK not really having the level of affinity with the EU, our lack of foreign language skills, the fact that English is the first second language learnt. our history of being top dog and dictating terms and part of me said we really do not wan to part of this as a country. But then I looked at my daughters and said they now speak french and spanish I and my partner have worked across EU indeed my partner spent 18 months in Norther Spain on a whim got a job and loved it, I fear we are the exceptions. ifear that we are driven by the idea of nostaligic familiarity and I hope I am wrong.

  37. @ToH following your gentle reproof I was trying to avoid provoking you further!

    My preferred path would have been as you know to remain. I accept that we didn’t win and I accept that it is highly likely that we will in some sense ‘leave’. So the question is what is the best ‘feasible deal. In these circumstances I find it diffficult that many Brexiters either assume we have a power that in my view we completely lack (the EU can go whistle for its money) or think that they are so keen for our trade that they will bend over backwards to be reasonable, or believe that it is the EU that has been holding back our entrepreneuial spirit (how come that Germany the heart o the inward looking EU has China as its main trading partner whiel our trade with China is pitiffful by comparison) or believe that any dificculty from Euratom to shortage of Nufrses in the NHS to congestion at the port of Dover will simply vanish in the light of the new glorious day.

    Colin – I suppose it depends on what you mean by campaign. There was one. Tony Blair, Lord Kerr and others are still behaving as if there is one. If there is one, it will only achieve its aims, if public opinion shirfts drastically, it becomes painfully apparent that the doomsayers about Brexit were right, and there is some coup or realignment in parliamment.

    A more likely scenario is my view is that we leave the EU on very unsatisfactorfyf terns and reap the whirlwind as a result. Like you I hope thss does not happen! Hence my search for guidance as to how the worst consequences might be avoided.

  38. Charles: “Hence my search for guidance as to how the worst consequences might be avoided.”

    It’s Alan (I think) who has the answer to that one: emigrate.

  39. Toby Ebert

    “Just wanted to remind people (re. CambridgeRachel’s post) that Opinium is now showing 41% in favour of a second referendum.

    If, and it’s a big ‘if’, that figure goes up to 60% before the end of a mooted transition period, then it would be very difficult for any government to refuse.”

    I disagree, 60% is not enough for a new ref. I think it needs to be 70 plus for an extended period of time.

  40. @Brilliant Smith

    Yes, I’m 47 in September, so when I read the headline I assumed I’d be one of the ones to get shafted and indeed I am.

    It’s all a bit pointless, I have a limiting health condition and don’t expect to live past 60, although, ironically, I’ve saved a decent pension since if I do make it that far I am likely to be very poorly.

    I do like the euphemism that ‘it will save the Exchequer’, which is a much nicer way of saying ‘more people like Chris will die before they get to retire’

  41. Analyst

    “I would be very wary in drawing parallels between Brexit and the five star movement. The party is chronically misunderstood by the UK press (as was the referendum they had a little while back – the narrative in the UK press was so horribly politically illiterate). ”

    Great analysis of the 5 star movement but although as you say we should all be wary of drawing parallels between Brexit and 5 star, we know it won’t stop the UK press doing precisely that. I think that if five star does well in the the Italian elections next year the media in this country will spin it as a vote for ltexit and that spin will increase support for Brexit.

  42. SOMMERJOHN
    You wrote this:
    Free movement of people is what exists between the UK and Ireland. Citizens of either country can move freely between the two and take up residence, whether they have a job or any means of support, or not.
    Free movement of labour, on the other hand, is one of the EU’s ‘four freedoms’. It allows citizens of any member to travel to another for the purpose of finding, or taking up, work. But it is not an automatic right to residence; if no work has been found after 3 months, the host government can eject the job seeker.

    I don’t have a particularly strong view about Brexit but I find it incredible that someone who is a passionate as you clearly are could be so misinformed. Are you just having a laugh perhaps?

  43. Oldnat

    Dispute resolution used to be my game. There are some that are incapable of resolution. You reported one above. I can report the possibility of another. From The National:

    “Those calls for unity fell on deaf ears, as Tory insiders claimed Gove and Boris Johnson were trying to engineer a “walk out” of the Brexit negotiations in a bid to thwart the soft Brexit aspirations of Chancellor Phillip Hammond and other Remainers in the government.

    An insider told the London Evening Standard that Johnson and Gove, the two friends-turned-enemies-turned-friends-again wanted to use the row over how much Britain needs to pay the EU to settle its debts, to call Brussels’ bluff and head straight for a hard Brexit.

    “They want a situation where the EU just say ‘enough is enough’ and show us the door,” claimed the paper’s source. “They want the hardest of hard Brexits.””

    http://www.thenational.scot/politics/15418994.Conservative_backbenchers_call_on_May_to_get_rid_of____donkey____Brexiteers_if_she_wants_their_support/

  44. @CR,

    Yes, that’s true. If the press continue to present the FSM as the Italian Brexit party (conveniently ignoring the existence of Lega Nord), we might well find that kind of spin.

    I remember during the French election, seeing papers like the Mail and Express writing about Melenchon in almost a positive light, the most insulting thing they said about him was that he was ‘far left’ – and highlighted his euroscepticism. I found it quite amusing to be honest, since everything else about his policy platform was precisely what those papers hate in a party / politicians, but taken to the extreme. If Melenchon’s policies were the Labour Party’s policies (and, if anyone doubts this, they really are a mile apart), the Mail and Express would have a field day.

    So I guess you’re right in that the UK press does not look to other countries to inform us, but merely selectively reports to support their own agenda domestically.

    @Colin,

    I don’t know enough about Lega Nord to comment properly, but on paper it would strike me if they worked closely with each other without losing a lot of M5S’s support.

  45. @CR,

    Yes, that’s true. If the press continue to present the FSM as the Italian Brexit party (conveniently ignoring the existence of Lega Nord), we might well find that kind of spin.

    I remember during the French election, seeing papers like the Mail and Express writing about Melenchon in almost a positive light, the most insulting thing they said about him was that he was ‘far left’ – and highlighted his euroscepticism. I found it quite amusing to be honest, since everything else about his policy platform was precisely what those papers hate in a party / politicians, but taken to the extreme. If Melenchon’s policies were the Labour Party’s policies (and, if anyone doubts this, they really are a mile apart), the Mail and Express would have a field day.

    So I guess you’re right in that the UK press does not look to other countries to inform us, but merely selectively reports to support their own agenda domestically.

    @Colin,

    I don’t know enough about Lega Nord to comment properly, but on paper it would strike me if they worked closely with each other without losing a lot of M5S’s support.

  46. @David colby

    What is the position re free movement of people and free movement of labour? People seem to use them interchangeably but on the face of it they are different things and relate to different phases of the EU’s development.

  47. SOMERJOHN

    “I regard that as a compliment, so thank you.
    That’s fine; I was certainly not intending it to be derogatory. It just fits with a view I have of you. If you have any imagination I am sure you have a mental picture of me. It’s part of the fun of blogging don’t you think?
    You have me laughing again because clearly you did not read my post properly and therefore are making assumptions that are plain wrong.
    I wrote:-
    ” I would not dream of attempting to make fun of your views by writing a religious parody, which does not offend me since i have no religion, but may well offend others.”
    So I was saying I have no religion so your rather poor attempt (IMO) at a parody did not offend me. However I said it could offend others and I believe that to be true. I also said I would not dream of attempting to make fun of your views by writing a religious parody. The reason I would not is because on an open forum like this it would be quite possible that some would be offended if I did that. Amongst people I know, and I know would not be offended, then I can enjoy religious jokes as much as the next man.
    You really need to concentrate and get your facts right.

  48. Regarding Brexit, do people think Europe will still be a collection of fully independent nations in 100 or even 200 years time, or is the trajectory of history set on us all eventually coming closer together into a federation of semi-autonomous states?

    And if the latter, isn’t it better to reform what’s already begun, rather than to leave it and then hope it happens to turn out the way we like in 50-100-200 years time?

  49. SSSIMON

    I expect Europe to be a collection of fully independant nations. They may have different borders to those at present. Just IMO of course. I don’t expect the EU to last 100 years into the future.

  50. I see that now, as well as EU creating laws to insist that our bananas – BRITISH bananas!! – are straight and sold in centimetres, they are now bringing in regulations to stop companies charging us extra for using credit cards and some debit cards also.

    The sooner we can leave – and bring back these charges – the better in my view [and I believe I speak for the country on this.]

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