The Times have published their first YouGov poll since the general election. Topline figures are CON 38%, LAB 46%, LDEM 6%. This is the largest Labour lead we’ve seen in any poll since the election, though the vast majority of polls have shown them ahead. Fieldwork was yesterday and today.

Full tabs are here.

To provide the usual post-election methodology note, there’s not much change here – YouGov have gone back to removing don’t knows rather than reallocating, meaning this is pretty much the method they used earlier in the election campaign that tended to mirror their MRP model. The only significant change is that UKIP have been relegated out of the main prompt and back to “others”.


1,528 Responses to “YouGov/Times – CON 38%, LAB 46%, LDEM 6%”

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  1. @ CARFREW and Cambridge Rachel

    “There is still a lot of anger about the events last summer and particularly the suspension/expulsion of members and the disenfranchisement of more than a hundred thousand members. Given time those feelings will subside but of course chuka brought it back into people’s minds again and now this. Also lots of fake news both from the Tories and the ‘moderates which is starting to look coordinated.”
    ———
    Yes, a bit odd if they deselect members and then protest about possible deselection for themselves.
    ——————————————————————-
    Carfew made me laugh but of course it’s true … and also true that (as Rachel says) the aim is to cause havoc and make the membership angry.

    Word on the ground is that Bercow upset the apple cart by calling Chuka’s amendment …. it was meant to be kite flying not an actual vote. Hence, anger from the sacked members of the shadow cabinet.

    The other piece of news about a Mandeson/Blair/Osborne created new party for the irreconcilables is that there is an impasse. The donors want to know that there are enough MPs prepared to defect, and the potential defectors want to know that there is the funding. I believe that a bank account has now been set up for the donors to deposit their contributions into…. Who knows what happens next.

  2. Syzygy

    Any news on possible names for this evil empire of centrism?

  3. Colin

    “We must use the correct word:-
    Transition:- the process or a period of changing from one state or condition to another.
    Interim :-the intervening time.provisional, temporary, pro tem, stopgap,”

    There is a third one: suspense: the temporary cessation or suspension of something.

  4. SYZYGY
    Any link to TB for a new opportunist party has got to be risky?
    If any Labour MPs sign up to it, there’s only one response: ‘F*ck ’em – and good riddance’.

  5. SYZYGY

    Well that would save us from the unpleasantness of deselecting the b**stards.

  6. Haven’t seen Rob Sheffield in a while

  7. Have the papers been reporting on this poll at all? Only place I saw it was the DM, and the Grauniad gave it just a passing mention in an article about supposed Labour infighting.

  8. REGGIESIDE
    “fyi there is no contradiction in being opposed to the destructiveness and inequities of capitalism whilst being in favour of technology, transport and healthcare.”
    Are you sure about that? From the wheel to Uber, progress has always been driven by profit, and profit is always disruptive as ‘one mans profit is another mans loss’.
    Of course a long, impressive list of great communist inventions would disprove my assertion.

  9. Labourious list was also underwhelming in it’s reporting of you gov.

    Leads with,

    “Labour has notched up an eight point poll lead over the Tories despite its escalating row over claims of a “purge” of centre-left MPs.”

    Titter.

  10. According to a tweet linked to by David Torrance – the commentator on matters Scottish – a new election based on the Scottish sub sample would be very good news for Labour in terms of Scotland Labour MPs.

  11. @ Danny

    “For the libs to switch now to a leave strategy would be death.”

    They probably won’t, but that’s unrelated to any point I was making. The tendency to reduce every issue on the political landscape to Brexit is misplaced, as the Lib Dems found out for themselves only last month, and as their abysmally low poll-ratings show.

    Constructive dialogue and cooperation with the government on various issues could be just what they need to restore some relevance and visibility, and I have little doubt that it’s at least being contemplated by both parties.

    Re: Lab/Con appealing to old/young demographics

    “How would they do this?”

    Again, though obviously important, reducing the motivations of young and old voters to just housing and assets is myopic. The Tories could develop more distinctly youth-friendly policies (limit tuition fees, improve support for poorer students, enhance apprenticeship schemes, develop more community youth facilities/support programmes etc) but also, crucially, could borrow a leaf from Corbyn’s book and make more effort to publicly listen to their views and show they’re ‘in touch’. The perception they’re a party for ‘old’ people is doing them irreparable harm.

    I think for Labour trying to attract mature voters, the challenge is not about more giveaways/pensions etc (they’re already more generous in some regards). For elderly voters, it seems the moral menu may well be what deters them (see: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/jun/05/why-working-class-people-vote-conservative ). Thus the perception Corbyn is weak on security/defence issues is particularly harmful. And a flavour of old-school social conservatism on issues like crime and anti-social behaviour, and demonstrable efforts to support families and listen to fears about community cohesion and address it with policy initiatives could turn things around.

    Neither party is going to heal the country if they end up appealing to and attracting polar opposites on nearly every contemporary issue.

  12. SAM S
    Have the papers been reporting on this poll at all?

    The Indy has Labour takes eight-point lead over Tories in first YouGov poll since election.

    The Evening Standard has a slightly different take with Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour takes eight-point poll lead over Conservatives.

  13. Phoenix party

    This new political force and the timetable was pre-scripted before the election was called.If TM had not called it a new anti -brexit alliance would have come into being probably ensuring that a clean brexit or any brexit never happened.Chuka was probably going too lead the new grouping in parliament. as the new macron. An election would surely have followed.Unlikely or fanciful?Perhaps not.

    It has been scuppered by TM calling an election and running the most inept in living memory and Corbyn consolidating his position.IMHO the survival of Corbyn has probably ensured that Brexit in some shape or form will take place with at least the strong possiblity that if he had been badly defeated or simply stayed but been 20 points behind in the polls a new phoenix party of labour, tory and liberals would have emerged.

  14. MarkW

    Thanks for the link to the inventions/innovations.

  15. This is only one poll, and I’m a bit of a sceptic about Voting Intention polls taken so soon after the real votes have been cast, but it does fit into an overall trend established by most of the other pollsters, thereby confirming the rather bizarre situation of the losing side in the election enjoying a post election honeymoon rather than the winners. As Anthony knows well, the opposite is usually the case with voters, keen to associate with the winners, piling in behind the victors, deserting the losers and falsely recalling what they’d just done in the ballot box. This halo effect has quite clearly failed to materialise and this again points to what an utterly extraordinary election took place just a mere 30 days ago. So much so that the technical “winners”, the Tories, recorded a victory in name only and have been badly wounded whereas the technical “losers”, Labour, have been reinvigorated. In many ways, it would appear to have been a good election to lose, certainly in terms of the long term prospects of the two main parties. I expect Corbyn looks at a shell-shocked May across the dispatch box and sees her with a government in-tray from hell that he’s rather glad not to have to deal with.

    The other interesting part of it all, and it’s an eternal verity of politics, as well as possibly being a tad cruel and unfair too, is how quickly political authority and stature can drain away from a once seemingly all powerful political leader. Much as May and her admirers may try, once the magic genie of political credibility escapes, it’s virtually impossible to get back into the bottle.

    Only ghouls can enjoy the spectacle.

  16. @Tony Ebert

    “We need another poll on the referendum question, to see if people have changed their minds.”

    We have one, from Yougov Eurotracker – and yes, people have changed their minds:

    Remain 46%
    Leave 42%

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/gd8a4jt3m3/Eurotrack_June17_1W.pdf

  17. SAM S

    Have the papers been reporting on this poll at all? Only place I saw it was the DM, and the Grauniad gave it just a passing mention in an article about supposed Labour infighting.

    Oddly enough the Mail seems to have given it the best prominence (they do like free content) while the Times seem to have hidden their own poll away in the universally reported story about the ‘deselections’. But then the Guardian / Observer were similarly reticent about their own polls[1] as well. Clearly polls should only be taken seriously when they say what the editor or owner wants.

    [1] Incidentally we still haven’t had the ICM tables for the Guardian yet – at least they’re not in the usual place and there doesn’t seem to be any ICM commentary or note on methodology.

  18. Saffer

    That lead for remain looks suspiciously like per referendum polls. I’d want to see at least 10 point lead before saying remain was ahead and at least 15 points before labour starts shifting it position.

  19. CAMBRIDGERACHEL

    Any news on possible names for this evil empire of centrism?

    S.Thomas appears to be calling it the Phoenix party (and it might well be called that) …. but the politest provisional name that I know is SDP2. It has been Mandelson’s aim to create a ‘centre left’ party of permanent majority (see Karl Rove) since before the 2010 GE. Some suspect that Brown’s GE campaign was deliberately undermined with a view to coalition with the LDems and led by David Miliband. Nick Clegg reneged on the deal although it has to be said that the numbers were against a coalition with LP.

    However, it is well known that over the last year, Osborne has been canvassing likely Labour, LDem and Conservative MPs…. and it now seems that Chuka would likely to be anointed the new Princeling rather than Yvette.

    Has to be said that RJW and Paula rather sum up my opinion…. but it’s a huge risk for any defecting MPs and I imagine that only a few of the irreconcilables would be prepared to jump. Only time will tell.

  20. “Any news on possible names for this evil empire of centrism?”

    ——–

    NuLib?

  21. Where can I find an up-to-date poll of polls graph?

  22. Sue,

    ” I imagine that only a few of the irreconcilables would be prepared to jump. ”

    Surely Chilcott’s comments finish for good Blair as a figurehead and how could any centrist politician let alone centre-left align themselves with Osborne and his shrink the state doctrine.

    Dead in the water, if it was ever credible in the first place, is my judgement.

  23. SYZYGY

    The other piece of news about a Mandeson/Blair/Osborne created new party for the irreconcilables is that there is an impasse. The donors want to know that there are enough MPs prepared to defect, and the potential defectors want to know that there is the funding. I believe that a bank account has now been set up for the donors to deposit their contributions into…. Who knows what happens next.

    This sounds highly unlikely, but given the general bizarreness of UK politics at the moment, that means it probably is true. I just love the idea of MPs announcing a principled split from the Party and voters that elected them only a month previously – but only if you give them enough money. It may not necessarily be the main path to popularity.

    The polite interpretation is that the ‘moderates’ are busy fighting a previous set of battles – seeing Corbyn and Momentum as the new Militant. The problem with that is not just that it all happened when some of the current brave battlers were infants, it’s that Militant was a small cadre organisation, trying to take over Labour by internal politicking rather than mobilising a mass membership. The most recent changes in Labour are not only less organised, but more populous. Indeed the real heirs of Militant are those who for so many years ran much of the Party as a closed shop, more concerned with committee meetings and manipulating favoured candidates into position than actually with winning.

    All the talk of deselection is likely to do is to make it more likely. CLP members will see the same prima donnas, who have been colluding with their media chums for the part two years to get their own way (irrespective of the effect on the Party), go through exactly the same tricks as if the election hadn’t proved everything they said wrong.

    Even those members who were sceptical about Corbyn will be impatient and weary of the self-pitying tone and angry entitlement that the ‘moderates’ exhibit. Look at this ridiculous story about some of them sulking because haven’t been invited to sit on the stage at the Durham Miners’ Gala for example:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/07/corbyn-critics-banned-durham-miners-gala-reception

    If nothing else it’s evidence of the disconnect between the Westminster Bubble and the rest of the country.

  24. Jim jam

    Depends where you think the centre is

  25. @Carfrew

    Well they could just drop the Liberal and copy the Americans by calling themselves ‘The Democrats’.

    Or ‘The Centrists?’

    The ‘Third Wayists’ sounds a bit too cultish.

    or there’s ‘The In-Betweeners’ (or has that been done?)

  26. MarkW
    Thanks for that…
    The ‘space race’, heart bypass surgery, the AK47 and a cure for Anthrax.

  27. S THOMAS

    [This new political force] has been scuppered by TM calling an election and running the most inept in living memory and Corbyn consolidating his position.IMHO the survival of Corbyn has probably ensured that Brexit in some shape or form will take place with at least the strong possiblity that if he had been badly defeated or simply stayed but been 20 points behind in the polls a new phoenix party of labour, tory and liberals would have emerged.

    That doesn’t all make sense. It’s true SDP2 (This Time It’s Farce) may have been planned before the election, but it would hardly have worked as a bar to Brexit unless there was no election at all. Because if May had succeeded in getting a much increased majority (and most of the new MPs would have been hard line Brexiteers) then she would have had a majority to ignore the new Party. And if Labour had been much reduced in numbers, then the remnants would no doubt be hoping to take back control of their own Party.

    But even without an election, the more pro-EU elements leaving Labour would be more likely to make those left in the Party less willing to oppose Brexit deals as a reaction and so back the government. All these ‘clever’ moves would be counter-productive. As usual nothing seems to have been thought through.

  28. I have it on good authority and can’t name any names, but the word on the ground is that many moderate PLP members are surprised and delighted that Labour has become a force to be reckoned with. They are more than happy to co-operate with Corbyn who is having discussions with them behind closed doors.

  29. @VOICE_OF_REASON

    “Well they could just drop the Liberal and copy the Americans by calling themselves ‘The Democrats
    ’.
    Or ‘The Centrists?’

    The ‘Third Wayists’ sounds a bit too cultish.

    or there’s ‘The In-Betweeners’ (or has that been done?)”

    ———–

    Regarding similarity to Democrats, as it happens, did toy with calling them Clintonistas, before settling on NuLib.

    Not sure “Third Wayists” sounds cultish enough! I think they have to be in-between to be considered in-betweeners.

  30. @carfrew

    Don’t know much about Entropy theory, but have read some stuff by the US philosopher Daniel Dennett recently on the state of things. He’s very clear on the ‘evil’ of denying the possibility of objective truth, he reckons the intellectual credence (!) for Trump is the fault of all those pesky post-modernists. Dennett seems like a likeable old boy as well as being very clever, which always helps.

  31. “The problem with that is not just that it all happened when some of the current brave battlers were infants, it’s that Militant was a small cadre organisation, trying to take over Labour by internal politicking rather than mobilising a mass membership. The most recent changes in Labour are not only less organised, but more populous.”

    —————-

    Plus, many of Corbs policies are not exactly militant, only rolling things back to the days of Thatch…

  32. It occurred to they could go with ‘One Nation’, but then I remembered Pauline Hanson.

  33. @RJW

    Haven’t read much Dennett for a long time, read him on his ideas concerning the nature of consciousness back in the nineties. And maybe the post-modernists have some explaining to do, but maybe their ideas were misappropriated a bit by the relativists…

  34. “It occurred to they could go with ‘One Nation’…”

    ——–

    One Notion maybe, if that isn’t stretching it a bit…

  35. “Depends where you think the centre is”

    ——–

    Apparently they moved it to the right of Thatch without telling us!

  36. VALERIE

    I have it on good authority and can’t name any names, but the word on the ground is that many moderate PLP members are surprised and delighted that Labour has become a force to be reckoned with. They are more than happy to co-operate with Corbyn who is having discussions with them behind closed doors.

    Now then Valerie. You’ll never get a column in a newspaper with that sort of talk. “My Hell with Corbyn’s Stormtroopers” is the sort of thing they are looking for.

    Of course that’s true about a large majority of the PLP and I suspect that the experience of the election will have reassured many as well. All those wild-eyed teenage trots who who were supposed to imposing their will on the Party, turned out to be normal people of all ages who came to help MPs from all factions in the Party to get elected.

    The two months of local campaigning together will have helped in most cases to get people within individual PLPs to gel. And for many MPs the effect of Corbyn campaigning and the popularity of the policies must have had the same effect as it did on the wider public. It made them reconsider exactly the same Groupthink assumptions that their colleagues and the media had been endlessly repeating and reinforcing.

    Since the election things have clearly improved. Even many of the ‘rebels’ over the Single Market were driven by their genuine concerns and those of their constituents (nearly half were London MPs). But the PLP’s election of prominent Corbyn critics to Parliamentary Committee suggests there is still a lot of covert resistance going on:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/07/jeremy-corbyn-critics-win-election-labour-parliamentary-committee

    What is also fascinating is just how unrepentant the media are – how they have continued to behave exactly as before, despite all their ‘expertise’ turning out to be nonsense. And they may well end up damaging the prospects of their PLP mates simply by guilt by association.

  37. @DAVID COLBY

    “The ‘space race’, heart bypass surgery, the AK47 and a cure for Anthrax.”

    ———-

    Wot, didn’t you read past the first few posts? Leaving out all the Space firsts…

    “Here’s a list of inventions and “firsts” to have emerged from the former Soviet Union, which as SilverRabbits correctly pointed out was Socialist/State-Capitalist not Communist.

    SCIENTIFIC-TECHNOLOGICAL ACHIEVEMENTS:

    PHYSICS :

    First nuclear power plant, Obninsk (1954)

    Development of the largest thermonuclear experimental facility in the world, Tokamak 10, prototype of a thermonuclear reactor

    Invention of the Tzar Bomba, the most powerful nuclear bomb in history (100 Mt) whose power was reduced for environmental reasons (50-57 Mt). Comparison to USA bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki 15 Mt

    Invention of nuclear fusion

    Invention of the Tokamak (1956), aiming to provide apparatus fusion plasma particle

    Invention of the first nuclear icebreaker “LENIN” world’s first nuclear-powered (1952)

    Invention of particle accelerator microtron (1944)

    Invention synchrotron particle accelerator (1957)

    Invention of the electron paramagnetic resonance spectroscopy (1944)

    First fast neutron reactor, BN350 (1955)

    Creation pipeline longest history, Druzhba (1964)

    First nuclear desalination reactor, BN-350 (1972)

    First reflectron (1973)

    Creating the largest geotechnical probe history, Kola Well (1970)

    Creating BARS Press (1989)

    7
    SpockStoleMyPants• 193d
    PART TWO

    ELECTRONICS:

    Invention of the LED (Oleg Vladimirovich, 1927) (So if you’re reading this on an LED screen, you have Commies to thank.)

    Invention of vibratory exercise equipment (1960)

    Perfecting maser, Basov and Aleksandr Prokhorov Nikolai

    Lomography Invention (1982)

    First lie detector device, by Alexander Romanovich Luria

    Creating underwater welding, Konstantin Khrenov (1932)

    First reflector telescope, the Maksutov (1941)

    First laser microphone (1947)

    Creating the magnetotelluric (1950)

    Discovery of the Belousov-Zhabotinski Reaction (1951)

    Creation explosive compression generator pumped flow (1951)

    Creating 3D holography (1962)

    First microwave oven (1941)

    First radio antenna

    MEDICINE:

    Invention of therapies against infectious diseases that were based on bacteriophage virus (1940)

    Early surgical treatment of congenital heart disease, by pioneering Bukulev Alexander (1948)

    Creation of Objective Psychology, by neurologist Vladimir Bekhterev, also known for pointing out the role of the hippocampus in memory, his study of reflexes, and Bekhterev’s disease

    First successful cornea transplant in 1931, by Vladimir Filatov, who developed tissue therapy

    Creating radial keratotomy by Svyatoslav Nikolayevich Fyodorov

    Creating the Ilizarov apparatus for lengthening limb bones and for the Ilizarov Surgery (1951) by Gavriil Abramovich Ilizarov

    Creating cultural-historical psychology, psychological activity theory and method of “combined power”, by Alexander Romanovich Luria

    Enlarge criteria for the diagnosis of schizophrenia with the distinction between negative and positive symptoms, a key research and classification of schizophrenia concept, Andrei Snezhnevsky

    First cardiac surgery under local anesthesia, Alexander Vishnevsky, 1953

    Foundation of purulent surgery, Archbishop Luka Voyno-Yasenetsky, Stalin Prize, Nobel Prize in Medicine in 1946.

    Discovery of Cherenkov Effect (Pavel Cherenkov Alekseyecih)

    First artificial organ transplant

    First transfusion of blood from a corpse, Sergei Yudin, 1929.

    First blood bank. Created by Sergei Yudin in early 1930. Middle of that same year, the USSR would have 65 large blood donation centers and more than 500 branches.

    Creation of painless childbirth (under anesthesia)

    Creating Gramicina S (1942)

    First head transplant with full brain function (1950)

    Creating anthropometric cosmetology (1952)

    Creating radial keratotomy (1974)

    Discovery of Vitamins

    Discovery of the virus

    First acoustic microscope (1959)”

  38. Yea, but apart from that, hardly anything.
    And no soviet fidget spinners? Tut.

  39. On the name of the Osbourne/Blair/Mandleson party. They could just be honest (OK I know that is impossible for these three) and call themselves the “Blame the Poor” party or perhaps the Corporatists.

  40. @MarkW

    And I left out a load: Art, Military, Social Achievements, and of course Computers…

    “First programmable computer MESM (1950)

    First Soviet and European electronic computers , BESM (Sergey Lebedev, 1951) and MESM (Sergey Lebedev , 1958)

    First computer with ternary logic (faster and more reliable than the binary system), Setun (Nikolai Brusentsov, 1958) and model development Setun-70 (Nikolai Brusentsov, 1970) which further reinforced the aspect of programming, improving to by a factor 5 software development over other architectures time

    First personal computer, MIR (Victor Glushkov, 1965)

    First computer-aided education system in history (Nastavnik), with a clear reference to the current

    First superscalar computer (processor microarchitecture capable of executing more than one instruction per clock cycle), Elbrus-1 (Boris Babaian, 1970). The use of this equipment in 1978, ten years before commercial applications appeared in the West, the Soviet Union developed its missile systems and nuclear and space programs.

    Foundation of cybernetics (Victor Glushkov)

    Invention of Tetris (Alexey Pajitnov, 1984)

    Invention of the FAR file manager, RAR and WinRAR format file (Eugene Roshal)

    First mobile phone, Leonid Ivanovich Kupriyanovich (1955), which was copied by – the USA in 1970 and Finland in 1980 gave him a civil use with Nokia.”

  41. Although “first computer” stuff is often contentious…

  42. RM

    With all this harmony in the Labour Party it must have come as a surprise to some that only 9 days ago 49 Labour MP’s defied Corbyn in a commons vote and he actually sacked three of his shadow cabinet and a further one resigned.
    Obviously everything is really peace and love in the party unless your on that deselection list which of course doesn’t exsist so that’s alright then I can hear those 49 MP’s breathing a sigh of relief all the way over here in the US. Lol

  43. Carfrew

    Did you fact check that list before posting, some of those look iffy to me.

    But I’d like to make an observation about the merits of state capitalism(Soviet Union) v free market capitalism(USA). To make any meaningful comparison we should look at the environment these two countries operated in.

    Soviet Union was born out of a revolution in a mostly agrarian society which had only just progressed from feudalism. At the time of the revolution it had been fighting and losing a major war for three years and was almost at the point of collapse. Soon after the revolution a bloody civil war started with the white Russians being backed by foreign govt. Soon after the close of WWI 18 different countries invaded the Soviet Union.

    Fast forward to the second World war and again a devastating war lasting 4 years fought mainly on their own soil. Most of their major centres were destroyed, much of their industry and possibly as many as 20 million of its people died.

    After the war the cold war began, the Soviet Union was surrounded and “contained” and it was forced to spend much of its resources on defence as it was under constant threat of attack(that’s how they saw it)

    We all know US history and I think we can agree it was significantly different and therefore we would expect a large divergence in outcomes

    This not to say that state capitalism is a better system, just to point out that context matters

  44. Turk

    Are you a Young Turks reject perchance? Anyway to your substantive points such as they are.

    The Labour is `in harmony, a small element of the Parliamentary party is being crass stupid. But throwing stones you know: The Senatorial GOP can’t even unite to get rid of Obamacare. The DNC are being mega stupid in trying a policy that seems to me to be “It didn’t work before so it must work now.” Yeah cosy!

  45. Trump, along with a handful of other countries, is the only person actually identifying some of the potential issues with mass migration throughout Europe. Am not saying I agree with stopping movement of people, but he is right in point out the growing threat of terrorism across Europe. If this isn’t sorted out, we are passing a massive problem to our children. Just dismissing this as racism is very crass. In many ways Trump is providing a useful service in challenging the liberal left position.

  46. @CambridgeRach

    “Did you fact check that list before posting, some of those look iffy to me.”

    ————-

    Obviously not, hence I mentioned that first computers is iffy, for eggers. Most everyone claims first computer it would seem. I know a fair amount of it is true, however, like the Tokamak etc.

    Point was, that there’s a lot more to consider than Monsieur Colby’s summary.

    I agree that we do have to take the speed of development into account and where they started from, and constraints in terms of being denied access to markets by the capitalist free traders haha.

  47. @Syzygy

    Yes, what with the donor catch 22 issue and the problem with Bercow as you point out, and then the small matter of the election result, things do not seem to be going well for the “moderates”.

    It didn’t work out too well for SDP either, and going by Finkelstein’s account, it was the Liberalism that did for them.

  48. I’m not going into the merits or non-merits of the Soviet system, but in the second half of the 1960s and first half of the 1970s the Soviet Union outpaced the US in innovation in a number of industrial sectors.

    It’s a different matter why the diffusion of innovation didn’t work in the Soviet Union, how the worldwide high energy and raw material prices shrunk R&D-focus in the SU, and how the geographic allocation of industries for maintaining social peace actually reduced productivity.

  49. @ Roger Mexico

    ‘Indeed the real heirs of Militant are those who for so many years ran much of the Party as a closed shop, more concerned with committee meetings and manipulating favoured candidates into position than actually with winning.’

    You are so right …. I expect you are already familiar with the handbook which explains the behaviour of the so-called ‘moderates’ (particularly Labour First), ‘Hammer of the Left: My Part in Defeating the Labour Left’ by John Golding. Inevitably, their’s is the mirror image of Militant tactics. Fighting fire with fire but … as with many movements, Labour First have rather lost touch with what the LP is for… They just don’t want to lose their iron grip and if that means collaborating with the Blairites… well at least they’re not Corbyn supporters who want a democratic organisation!

    Good news from the ground Valerie… fingers crossed.

    ‘ I just love the idea of MPs announcing a principled split from the Party and voters that elected them only a month previously – but only if you give them enough money. It may not necessarily be the main path to popularity.’

    No but as you write in a subsequent comment ‘As usual nothing seems to have been thought through.’ :)

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