There’s normally a somewhat quite period in terms of voting intention after an election. There’s just been an actual vote, newspapers have blown all their polling budget during the campaign and even pollsters have to have a holiday. Sample quotas and weights all have to be rejigged as well (that applies even when polls have got an election correct – most polls’ quotas or weights include voting at the previous election, so 2015 targets all need replacing with 2017 targets).

We’ve had two Survation polls earlier this month, both showing Labour leads. Yesterday’s Sunday Times also had a new Panelbase poll, their first since the general election, and also showed Labour ahead. Topline figures there are CON 41%(-3), LAB 46%(+5), LDEM 6%(-2), changes are from the actual election result (or at least, the Great British vote share at the general election – the vast majority of opinion polls cover Great Britain only, not Great Britain and Northern Ireland).

It’s an interesting rhetorical question to ponder how much of the shift in public opinion since the election is because of the general election result (Theresa May’s figures have dropped now she is the PM who called a snap election and lost her majority, Jeremy Corbyn’s have shot up now he is a leader who deprived the Tories of a majority when he’d been so widely written off), and how much is the continuation of trends that were already there in the general election campaign? In other words, if the election had been a week later, would the trend towards Labour have continued and would they have been the largest party (or the Tories less able to form a viable government?). We’ll never know for sure.


605 Responses to “Panelbase/Sunday Times – CON 41%, LAB 46%, LDEM 6%”

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  1. There are lots of posts on here from those who are supporters of leaving the EU.

    Thee posts are littered with “IMO” and “IMHO”

    It’s pointless arguing about this on here. Views are entrenched and no one is going to change their minds.

    All I can say is that Brexit hasn’t happened yet. We haven’t really seen the effects played out yet. I hope all these “opinions” turn out to be right. But on the whole, no one has put forward any coherent well thought out reasons yet for taking this gamble.

    So I remain quietly pessimistic for the future of my children. I try to be positive for them. But I feel that their future will not be as good as my past.

  2. @Trevor Warne

    Many would argue that the economy IS very different…and we haven’t left yet. We have barely even started to talk about how we will leave.

    However, the weak pound has cost us all in higher inflation and it may yet lead to higher interest rates and slower growth. The BOE already took QE measures after the referendum vote. It didn’t take these measure because ‘nothing had changed’. It took them because they were necessary to prevent something worse happening.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/04/bank-of-england-all-action-response-brexit-qe-interest-rate-cut

    The really big risks though are what happens if we leave the single market and trade barriers crop up. (i.e. the ‘no deal’ scenario).

    As for a Socialist government being a risk… well it would be ironic if after years of many right wing free marketeers banging on about Brexit if we left the EU to ‘take back control’ and a socialst government was elected, unconstrained by EU competition rules, and used all that extra power and influence to create a truly socialist state in the UK.

    We could all end up living in Tony Benn’s vision of Britain…and not Margaret Thatchers. I’m not sure that’s what many of the people who voted for Brexit would have considered when they made that decision.

  3. @Robin

    I knew someone would needlessly quibble…

    1) Lol, Sure, there might be a bit more accountability than some realise, but that’s sophistry innit. it’s still quite some way short of proper accountability, that’s why you have to switch to talking about perceptions, can’t defend the reality…

    2) Nice straw man there. No doubt there is “hysteria” concerning free movement, but that’s once again switching to perceptions to dodge the real issue: there are nonetheless real issues with free movement…

    3) I knew after I posted, I should have quibbled-proofed this point. I don’t doubt there is SOME investment in mitigating the effects of free movement, just nowhere near enough. When an Eastern European country is stripped of a million of its young adults in short order, that’s nowhere near enough.

    4) Explain to me how “synchronisation would have stopped the catastrophic collapse in demand and consequent hit to the economy suffered by swingeing cuts to Greece, and also suffered by others like Italy, especially given that they are unable to devalue or slash interest rates at will like we can

    5) after votes… but they rather had them over a barrel, didn’t they. Should those votes have even been required? You might be ok with that happening to us one day, I think it’s nuts. But I’ll be interested to see you sell it to us!

    6) Anti-protectionism is one thing, but you are once again ignoring the salient aspects, like governments need to be able to protect strategic industry, and indeed invest in new areas, and also, take into public ownership critical infrastructure if private sector are taking the mick.

    7) TTIP was quite far advanced before they decided it was too scary, besides it’s a scary thing, that they were even negotiating this stuff. And ALSO how much was done in secret. And given their neol1b attitudes to things like Austerity, it’d be no surprise if they didn’t find TTIP that scary anyways.

    None of these things bother ?ou? Fine. Wanna buy some swampland? But don’t try and pretend concerns are being misrepresented.

    8) It’s cherry-picking though innit. Deciding to relax certain rules that suit Germany, saying we could do the same, but we wouldn’t, because it doesn’t suit us. But anyways, we have some clout at the mo., so can get some leeway of our own. E.g. The financial opt-outs. The danger comes, if we wind up in a weaker position and the EU use that situation to treat us like Italy…

    9) Insisting on adherence to treaty obligations when they are not working very well is being inflexible, that’s my point. They might consider… changing the obligations!! The obligations are not there for their own sake. They are supposed to be bendifical. If not, then change it. Can’t believe I have to say this stuff…

    10) We have a strength as a gateway lol. Yes, it’s a shame we haven’t seen an influx of solid jobs as a result of this gateway thing, as opposed to the opposite…

  4. @TonyBTG

    “It’s pointless arguing about this on here. Views are entrenched and no one is going to change their minds.”

    ——–

    This is a massively narrow minded view. Even if people don’t change their minds, positions get refined, you get to understand others’ positions better… sometimes you come up with a synthesis. sometimes it plays a part in changing views down the line. People DO change their minds, if you care to look…

    Quite often, it’s a chance to learn from others when you don’t HAVE a view. I knew next to nothing about customs and border issues, and thus didn’t have a view on th matter to change. I get a chance to hoover up the info though, regardless of who changes their mind or not.

  5. @Oldnat

    I think the sticking point is temporary and concerns RHI and Ms Foster. There will be an agreement, I feel sure. Gerry Adams likes the money for the people of NI and will want to be part of how it is to be distributed.

    This post at Slugger’s may have wider resonance:https://sluggerotoole.com/2017/06/29/the-rocky-road-to-dublin-for-northern-nationalists/#disqus_thread

  6. @TONYBTG

    “It’s pointless arguing about this on here. Views are entrenched and no one is going to change their minds.”

    Agreed.

    “All I can say is that Brexit hasn’t happened yet. We haven’t really seen the effects played out yet. I hope all these “opinions” turn out to be right. But on the whole, no one has put forward any coherent well thought out reasons yet for taking this gamble.”

    Also agreed. But I tend to agree with the economic ‘experts’ – seems to be unfashionable these days.

    “So I remain quietly pessimistic for the future of my children. I try to be positive for them. But I feel that their future will not be as good as my past.”

    Well my 3 kids are pessimistic themselves about the post-Brexit future (even the 12 year old!).

    The most disappointing aspect of the vote for me was the age divide, displayed again at the general election.

    Young people, rightly or wrongly, felt that older people who won’t be around to see it, stole their future and part of their national identity.

    They aren’t going to forgive or forget that kind of thing quickly.

  7. Carfrew

    “3) I knew after I posted, I should have quibbled-proofed this point. I don’t doubt there is SOME investment in mitigating the effects of free movement, just nowhere near enough. When an Eastern European country is stripped of a million of its young adults in short order, that’s nowhere near enough.”

    I really like this point, I’m really concerned about the depopulation of various parts of Europe with some areas losing as much as a third of their population.

  8. @Carfrew

    4) If Greece had been honest about the state of its economy, it would never have been allowed to join the Euro, and the Drachma would simply have continued to float downwards in value.

    1&5) EU democracy is certainly a work in progress, but the lack of visible accountability is largely a lack of the former not the latter (and any deficiencies are at least partially due to resistance of some member states, including the UK, to stronger EU institutions). The whole point about the EU is that it is a pooling of sovereignty, and that the swings are more than offset by the roundabouts. Would the UK on its own ever have had the clout to issue a massive fine to Google?

    6) A lot of the issues here are to do with the particular ownership and tendering models that the UK government has chosen to follow, not the EU regulations themselves.

    7) Negotiators negotiated. Elected/appointed officials then told them to go and think again. The problem is?

    8) Similar to 6.

    9) We signed up to them, mostly at the time of Maastricht. the time to renegotiate treaty obligations (and democracy models) is when the treaties are being negotiated.

    10) Outsourcing of e.g. call centres has nothing to do with the EU. Certainly Brexit isn’t going to help here – a trade deal with India will likely accelerate the problem. And why do you think Nissan, Honda chose the UK?

  9. Carfrew

    Yes, fair point well said.

    Maybe I’m just fed up talking about it. :)

  10. CamRach: ” I’m really concerned about the depopulation of various parts of Europe”

    I don’t think you should be too concerned. The beauty of free movement of labour is that both the donor and recipient benefit. For instance, Poland has much lower unemployment than it would have if not for free movement; the stay-at-homes have enhanced opportunities and pay rates; many of the leavers will return with capital and new skills (not least fluent English). Poland is booming and will need those upskilled returning migrants. Britain, at the same time, has enjoyed enhanced GDP growth that would have been choked off by labour shortages had it not been for migrants.

    There have always been migratory movements from areas of low employment to higher. As Steinbeck fans will know, vast swathes of Oklahoma were depopulated in the dust bowl days when the choice was to starve at home or struggle to a new life in California. Ditto from Ireland during the great famine and later.

  11. @ TOH

    ‘ Worth your while giving it a go.’

    Another area of agreement … in every respect, vegetable growing is worth Carfew’s while… food tastes better, no need to visit the shops, exercise, relationship with local wildlife and more advantages besides … You don’t even need two allotments, even a tiny ‘flower’ bed can produce lots of courgettes and runner beans.

  12. Somerjohn

    But it’s the young leaving and the old being left behind. In some countries it might work out ok but if that kind of thing on that scale was happening to us……..

  13. @Somerjohn

    “The beauty of free movement of labour is that both the donor and recipient benefit. […] the stay-at-homes have enhanced opportunities and pay rates […]”

    Surely if depopulation is beneficial for workers in the donor country, the workers in the recipient country would suffer a disbenefit due to the exact same mechanisms working in reverse?

    That isn’t win/win, is it?

    (Or more accurately it’s not win/win/win/win if you split out employers and workers in both donor and recipient countries.)

  14. @ JIM JAM

    ‘Anecdote alert’

    I watched an Inside Europe discussion today between a Green MEP, ex-Ukip MEP Steven Woolfe and a EPP MEP which pretty much corroborated your anecdote. The Green said that it was in both parties interest to negotiate a mutually acceptable break but the problem was that the Conservatives didn’t seem to have a clear plan.

    He kept saying that the important thing was for the EU negotiators not to humiliate the British… which he seemed to think more problematic because of the incompetence. The other two did not disagree.

  15. Also I find it strange that the Irish famine could be talked about in positive terms

  16. The governments working majority is 14. Sinn Fein have 7 elected MPS. So it would be zero if Sinn Fein turned up.

    Perhaps Sinn Fein could hint about the possibility of turning up for vital brexit vote if certain conditions not met. This

    Not sure if the supporters would like them being abstentionist if they had the power to turn up.

    An alternative is that all the Sinn Fein elected MPS could resign seats not taken on mandate of turning up for a brexit vote. Or they could resign seats and not stand and support SDLP as one off.

  17. SYZYGY

    Absolutely for all the reasons you give.

  18. @ Carfew

    ‘ TTIP was quite far advanced before they decided it was too scary, besides it’s a scary thing, that they were even negotiating this stuff. And ALSO how much was done in secret. And given their neol1b attitudes to things like Austerity, it’d be no surprise if they didn’t find TTIP that scary anyways.’

    The Trade Deals were the big reason for my vote and unfortunately, we still have the even more secretive (and IMO more toxic) TiSA coming down the track. In fact, even leaving the EU, we will be bound by CETA for the next 20y.

    As you replied to Robin:

    ‘ there might be a bit more accountability than some realise, but that’s sophistry innit. it’s still quite some way short of proper accountability…’

    Great exchange btw.

  19. Sorry the Government working majority would be 7

  20. Thanks for that Sue.

  21. @ CR

    ‘But it’s the young leaving and the old being left behind. In some countries it might work out ok but if that kind of thing on that scale was happening to us…….’

    I believe that Latvia’s so-called ‘economic miracle’ has actually resulted in the population shrinking because of the huge exodus of their young. Furthermore, as you imply, it cannot be a universal solution… where would a comparable % of young Americans emigrate to? The most significant investment that any country makes is in the raising and educating of the next generation and that asset disappears into the coffers of another country with wholesale emigration.

  22. Voice_of_Reason

    your 4.52 post

    ” You seem very confident that the 50% of Tory MP’s that supported remain wouldn’t prefer to stay in the single market and customs union.”

    Well they help to defeat both the Labour amendment and Chuka Umunna’s amendment as the Government won the day on the Queens speech having conceded a minor amendment on abortion.
    The net result of the three votes IMO is that Labour look divided, approx 50 Labour MP’s ignored their whips on the Umunna motion.

  23. @Robin

    4) If we accept that Greece erred in the first place, thus still dodges the point that the “remedy” forced on them makes it even worse. Secondly you are still studiously sticking to Greece because can keep plugging that barren line about the entrance criteria which you can’t use for Italy, or other Southern European countries like Spain who could have done ?itn a less draconian regime.

    (And the idea Greece was necessarily that wrong to begin with is in itself at last open to question. They’re competing with developed economies, some with considerable size and resource and other advantages, in a boom period… if they didn’t try and boost investment they’d risk being left further behind. Because Others were cutting corners too, taking advantage of cheap money from China etc…)

    1) and 5) Sure you can argue that overall, it’s better off to stay in the EU, despite a democratic deficit. But you have to at least acknowledge it could be better, in order to reach a balanced assessment.

    6) Well, there may be issues to do with what the UK chooses in terms of public/private etc., but that is to once again dodge the bits that are the EU’s choices. Almost all your answers do not actually contest my point, but switch to summat else. You don’t like to acknowledge problems with the way the EU does things, but instead talk about errors made by others. And they do make errors, but that is to dodge what the EU has issues with.

    It’s like a doctor who, having screwed up an operation, then goes “well it’s all your fault for being ill!!”

    And every operation screwed up, it’s always the patient’s fault, no analysis of the doctor’s own performance must be considered!!

    7) “Negotiators negotiated. Elected/appointed officials then told them to go and think again. The problem is?”

    I told you what the problems are. But you don’t like my points and wanna talk about summat else!! The problems are, to REPEAT: that this TTIP stuff was on the table in the first place, that they tried to keep it so secret, that talks got so far before before breaking down, and they’ve shown themselves v. neol1b already so no wonder they were discussing this TTIP stuff

    I mean, are you aware of the implications of TTIP if anything like that goes through?

    8) “similar to 6”

    Yes well, 6 left summat to be desired…

    9) “We signed up to them, mostly at the time of Maastricht. the time to renegotiate treaty obligations (and democracy models) is when the treaties are being negotiated.”

    No treaty can expect to take everything into account. You need the flexibility to adapt when the unexpected strikes.

    10) “Outsourcing of e.g. call centres has nothing to do with the EU. Certainly Brexit isn’t going to help here – a trade deal with India will likely accelerate the problem. And why do you think Nissan, Honda chose the UK?”

    It does, I explained how. If the EU presses to keep liberalising markets, we are more vulnerable because easier to snaffle our jobs. We have less protection because of our language. It’s easier for Germans, Dutch and French and so on to snaffle our jobs since so many of them speak our language too. But we can’t all learn all their languages to compete…

  24. @ToH

    “I was not into vegetable growing until I retired, some crops are really easy, other do need some skill. Woth your while giving it a go.”

    ————–

    What’s the horticultural equivalent of being able to burn water? That’s me, with gardening. Do I need yet another thing to be rubbish at, I ask myself. But I can see it’s probably in my destiny at some point and I think it’s a useful thing to discuss, particularly for others who might benefit from the info.

  25. Carfrew’s 10 points are very good. Particularly point 9 on inflexibility which Robin counteracts as merely adhering to treaty obligations of Maastrict and Lisbon.

    Of course the world has moved on considerably since the Maastricht treaty was signed. The iron curtain had only just started disintigrating. The full future political effects of Maastricht negotiated 27 years ago were difficult to see. Nonetheless there was considerable opposition.

    Full political scrutiny of the Lisbon treaty didnt really happen as it should. Backroom deals and political pressure applied by the EU machine. Inconvenient national referendum results such as in The Netherlands or Ireland had to be rerun until the desired result was forthcoming.

    Basically the EU is terrified of future treaty renegotiation because it gives an opportunity for further referendums, public scrutiny and rejection of the EU project. There is far more scepticism now than 1990 or 2009 so basically the EU is stuck with defective treaties, proven to be not suitable for current circumstances but which cannot be changed for fear of unravelling the entire EU project.

  26. @CambridgeRach

    “I really like this point, I’m really concerned about the depopulation of various parts of Europe with some areas losing as much as a third of their population.”

    ———-

    Yes, and I’m not sure I’ve seen a pro-EU peep even try and address it. Still, one lives in hope…

  27. So four shadow cabinet ministers sacked by Corbyn for supporting Umanna’s bill that we should stay in the single market. This was a needless bill proposed by Umanna. He needs to either leave the party or be de-selected

  28. @Mike Pearce

    I don’t remember Corbyn being so decisive prior to the GE.

    He’s showing some steel.

  29. Interesting tactics by Stella Creasy over the funding of abortions.

    A good example on how to push a minority Government into concessions to avoid defeats.

    I think the Tory Whips will be the most under paid, over worked and challenged MPs for sometime.

  30. @Tonybtg

    “Yes, fair point…
    Maybe I’m just fed up talking about it. :)”

    ——–

    I can understand that. Personally however, I find it fascinating, what shifts views, what doesn’t, the subtle ways they shift under the radar, the way differences get accommodated, all that.

    A while back I came across some research in the New Scientist which I meant to post, about how our peer groups influence us much more than we realise, including online peers. (They used apps to track the way opinions were influenced over time, by whom…)

    I think, to be fair to you, we might perhaps try and dig more out of our disagreements at times…

  31. CatmanJeff

    Yes he is. I want us to remain in the single market but this is pure mischief making by Umanna. This bill was never going to succeed and is just another example of Labour MP’s defying their leader. It didn’t work before and it won’t work this time. Labour need to remain disciplined and the rewards will come.
    Agreed about Creasy. This is precisely how Labour should be exploiting the Government’s weakness.

  32. So Corbyn has just sacked front bench ministers who voted to want to remain in The Single Market. One wonders if these young people know exactly what they are voting for…

  33. @Somerjohn

    Well done having a go at upsides of big migrations. However a balanced assessment of course would set positives against the downsides of losing your health workers, your young people to fund the older peeps… and the economic hit of losing all that demand, and more besides…

  34. @Syzygy

    “Another area of agreement … in every respect, vegetable growing is worth Carfew’s while… food tastes better, no need to visit the shops, exercise, relationship with local wildlife and more advantages besides … You don’t even need two allotments, even a tiny ‘flower’ bed can produce lots of courgettes and runner beans.”

    ——–

    You make it sound so appealing. Your own courgettes, and runner beans. As opposed to the weeds I would mostly enjoy (and frankly there’s a bit of a vague even on the weeds surviving…)

  35. @Syzygy

    “The Trade Deals were the big reason for my vote and unfortunately, we still have the even more secretive (and IMO more toxic) TiSA coming down the track. In fact, even leaving the EU, we will be bound by CETA for the next 20y.”

    ———

    Yes, I’m sure Robin has summat very reassuring to say about TISA!! (Prolly summat about it being all our own fault…)

  36. Roger Mexico,
    “The main determinant is clearly Party affiliation, but EU attitude also plays a part”

    People do keep saying that, but I still dont see the evidence. If you ignore party loyalty, you might have predicted the outcomes we had at the election on the basis of Brexit view alone. It would not surprise me if the leave vote divided between the harder end voting tory and the softer labour. Thus reproducing the phenomenon that soft leavers dislike May more than hard do, as observed in the difference between labour leavers and conservative.

  37. From the Guardian blog:

    The House of Lords has set up a committee on political polling and digital media, to investigate “the effects of political polling and digital media on politics”. It will be chaired by the Labour peer Lord Lipsey, who advised the Labour prime minister Jim Callaghan on polling and it will report by the end of March 2018

    Hopefully that will give us something else to discuss as a bit of light relief from the endless speculation about what Brexit will actually mean.

  38. @TOH

    “Well they help to defeat both the Labour amendment and Chuka Umunna’s amendment as the Government won the day on the Queens speech having conceded a minor amendment on abortion.”

    It was effectively a confidence motion so always likely that the Tories would close ranks on the Queens Speech. The Brexit legislation is another matter.

    “The net result of the three votes IMO is that Labour look divided, approx 50 Labour MP’s ignored their whips on the Umunna motion.”

    Or another spin on it is that Corbyn looks strong and May looks weak, as he can sack the people that don’t behave as he wants with impunity and she has to put up with Hammond, Davis and Johnson all arguing in public or even contradicting her.

    And I don’t think anyone is under the illusion that the Tories are united.

  39. @CamRach: “Also I find it strange that the Irish famine could be talked about in positive terms”

    I was talking about the positives of emigration, not about the drivers of emigration. Are you seriously suggesting Ireland and its population would have been better off in the famine if no-one had emigrated?

    @Popeye: “Surely if depopulation is beneficial for workers in the donor country, the workers in the recipient country would suffer a disbenefit due to the exact same mechanisms working in reverse?”

    I was talking about a situation where there is a surplus of labour in one country and shortages in another. By and large, EU workers in the UK are not displacing locals: there is no mass of British wannabe vegetable pickers or bum-wipers deprived of their jobs by Poles; still less, unemployed doctors, dentists or university lecturers (hello, Laszlo). We have a big shortage of lorry and bus drivers, partially met by EU immigrants.

    But that’s the market in operation: resources flow to where they are best utilised. Put barriers in the way of that and the result is a less optimal allocation of factors of production. Put more simply, EU immigration boosts UK gdp and wealth,.

  40. the Other Howard,
    “secondly i do not accept that “soft” brexit exists, as I say we will jus move to being a non voting vassal state.”

    well now, I don’t know about the pejorative ‘vassal’ bit, but I have always agreed that soft brexit is worse than no Brexit. The irony is that virtually everyone might end dissatisfied by the Brexit process.I’d go so far as to suggest its almost guaranteed.

    Trevor Warne,
    “Being an island, most of our economy (over 70%) is domestic”,
    That may be so, but it is always the last 1% which is the profit. A quick check suggested 2008 caused a 20% drop in GDP. We have not recovered from that yet. Whatever loss in income results from lost foreign trade is magnified because the losers then can not spend that money domestically, and there is a knock on negative stimulus to the home economy too.

  41. Back to polling

    Something I noticed in the panel base poll was the way the churn in the leave remain vote seems to be dividing along party lines. It looks like Tory Remainers are becoming leavers while Labour leavers are becoming Remainers. They seem to balance each other out but it’s interesting that the 52/48 split isn’t the same 52/48 split as last year. I suppose that’s partly because the conservative party is now firmly associated with leave and so tribal Tories change their minds to reflect that, and of course the same applies to tribal labour.

  42. @ TONYbtg
    “Maybe I’m just fed up talking about it. :) Brexit.”

    Yeh. I watched the vote with old chums & when Brexit declared, one said, this is going to be so bloody boring. Little did we know. A year on & nothing achieved. In fact, now Hammond is running wild, the Tory position is even less clear. Lab also divided. A weak government & a divided opposition: Fantastic.
    As a materialist I can get excited about Pub Sector pay, productivity rates, whatever, but this abstraction: & as for sovereignty & whether we should be subject to the ECHR: tedious twaddle.

  43. @ VOR – LOL :)

  44. Danny

    “but it is always the last 1% which is the profit”

    aka Senior’s last hour … The same argument was used against the Factory Acts.

  45. @Rich

    “So Corbyn has just sacked front bench ministers who voted to want to remain in The Single Market. One wonders if these young people know exactly what they are voting for…”

    It depends what they voted for. Most of Labour’s Manifesto pretty much relied on being outside the EU and in particular outside EU trade and competition rules (which would have been mandatory within the Single Market, as currently constituted).

    Notwithstanding I believe there is a lot of road still to run. The EU negotiations are young, and I anticipate the final UK/EU settlement to be much more creative than it currently appears.

  46. Chukka’s amendment may have been a test to see how many could be counted in in another leadership contest.

    Some of the 50 may have put out local literature saying that they would vote to remain in the single market in the event of a vote after the GE. These have some cover but the rest were elected on the manifesto platform and should have voted accordingly.

  47. Laszlo,
    ” The same argument was used against the Factory Acts.”
    because it was true?

  48. Mike Pearce
    ‘So four shadow cabinet ministers sacked by Corbyn for supporting Umanna’s bill that we should stay in the single market’

    They were not Shadow Cabinet members but sat on the Frontbench.

  49. @JimJam

    Yes it looks like Chukka is getting some serious criticism for raising the amendment from across the Labour Party. Shows what a different world we live in now that Corbyn is a ‘rockstar’. The 50 rebels are going to be the equivalent of the Corbynite lefties that used to oppose Blair (assuming they survive reselection for the next election).

  50. @RAF,

    I agree with your sentiment. Plenty of road to run. Barnier doesn’t look very flexible, but I think he’ll have to move at some point.

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