Following on from the ORB and ICM polls at the start of the week, there are two more EU polls today that both have small movements towards Leave. YouGov in the Times have topline figures of REMAIN 41%(+1), LEAVE 42%(+3), DK/WNV 17%(-4), while Survation for IG have topline figures of REMAIN 45%(-1), LEAVE 38%(+3), DK 17%(-2). I’m dubious about whether this is an Obama effect, but it does put to bed the idea that the series of polls last week showing a movement towards Remain was the start of some sort of breakthrough.

An interesting thing about the YouGov poll – while their headline EU voting intention figures have changed very little over the last few months, there has been movement in Remain’s favour on the economic argument. Back in February people thought Britain would be worse off outside the EU by only a two point margin, it’s now thirteen points (35% worse off, 22% better off). YouGov’s regular EU questions have also shown increasing belief that leaving the EU would be bad for jobs, and bad for people’s personal finances. Yet this hasn’t translated into any movement in the headline figures.

This may be because it’s being balanced out by factors favouring Leave, like immigration or the NHS, or it may be that the economic argument hasn’t started to bite yet. I’m reminded of the experience of Scotland, where people swung towards YES during the campaign despite telling pollsters they thought that an independent Scotland would be worse off economically… but ended up swinging in favour of risk aversion and what they thought was their best economic interest in the final fortnight. Anyway, time will tell.

Finally YouGov have voting intention figures of CON 30%, LAB 33%, LDEM 6%, UKIP 20%. That twenty percent for UKIP is a record high from YouGov, though I am a little dubious about it. While it seems perfectly feasible that during a referendum campaign the only significant political party backing one side of the argument may get a boost in support, we haven’t seen such a big boost in support echoed in any other polling. Wait to see if that’s reflected in any other polling before getting too excited.


361 Responses to “YouGov/Times – Remain 41%, Leave 42%”

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  1. Carfrew
    I did say that “some of you seem to”. Looking back through the posts it was perhaps most relevant to Guymonde’s statement which was:
    “The most likely effect seems to be to disenfranchise young, mobile and particularly student voters who (you guessed it) are less likely to support the Conservative party”

    And may I say that your continual harping on about how terrible the lives of young people are nowadays does tend to grate after a while.

  2. @Pete B & Carfew

    “I don’t suspect a government plot, as some of you seem to, because if it is true that young people are less likely to register, this will be to the government’s disadvantage in the referendum.”

    “Lol Pete, trust you to try and project ulterior motives.”

    Actually this might not be so far wide of the mark. One of the things in this is human psychology – the quirk where we’re likely to keep putting things off we should do, even if its really easy or we really want to do it, for one reason or another. Think about all the times you’ve ever gone ‘it’d only take five minutes, but I’ll get to it tomorrow’, or something along those lines, for example (you all know you’ve done this).

    This was all in the book Nudge by Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein, that was all the rage a few years back. Among other things they point out in the book, is that people are more likely to stick with a scheme that’s opt-out, than they are to join the same scheme if it’s opt-in (so hence company pension schemes should be made opt-out rather than opt-in to increase take up). This is just quirks of the way human psychology works.

    Cameron was a big fan of the book.

    Union contributions got made opt-in rather than opt-out. Household registration was dumped in favour of individual registration.

    I’ll let you draw your own conclusions.

  3. @Pete B

    “And may I say that your continual harping on about how terrible the lives of young people are nowadays does tend to grate after a while”

    ——

    Oh I could give a huuuuuuuugggge list of things that might grate about you or things you say, but I wouldn’t because wouldn’t wanna inflict that kinda noise on Anthony or the board. (And anyway, to be fair, it often amuses rather than grates…)

    It would be great not to have endure veiled, or not so veiled ad hominems from you so regularly, but anyways, In this instance, the situation of the young is germane to the point. You may not like it, but the more burdens on one’s life, the more challenging to participate etc.

    Obviously some don’t like hearing this, (it seems to be especially irritating for those among the privileged who like to pretend any success is all down to themselves and not post war policy etc.) and There’s an Interesting article on the matter in the Times today (citing recent research and stuff!!)

    It isn’t all bad for the youth, you can argue they have more opportunity than before, in theory. But in practice, the means to avail themselves of the opportunities is being eroded.

    (In addition, I don’t see it as being all political, Pete. To me education is responsible a fair amount too. Not preparing peeps for the modern world. But that’s a whole extra deal…)

    In any event, if you track my posts rather than seeing them in more limited fashion, you will see I am concerned about the global phenomenon, whereby there is over-competition among the elites, leading to most offspring losing out. It’s something to be concerned about for your own descendents going forward.

    (Of course, if you think they’re all golden, no need to worry…)

  4. Carfrew,
    As you say, we don’t want to clutter up the board with irrelevant stuff. I’ll restrict myself to saying that each generation has challenges to deal with. Some get on and deal with them, and some complain. If having to fill in a 5-minute on-line form is too great a challenge for some of today’s young voters, then I pity them.

    Now I’m off to play online chess.

  5. @CB11 – “The man’s [John Mann] an idiot.”

    Can’t let that past. I don’t know why some people who stand up for causes and remain relentless in their pursuit of what they believe in get sneered at so much.

    I would agree that Mann would have been better in purely party management terms to say what he said in private, but Livingston was the one saying idiotic things, and someone had to call him out. Ken is the problem here (not for the first time) not those who have pulled him up.

    I’ve met John Mann on several occasions and he seems to be an exceptionally humble and pleasant individual, but he does care about basic Labour values, so gets up the nose of many of his colleagues who take a less principled line about such matters.

    Mann famously irritated many of his MP colleagues on all sides of the house by his attempts to get their expenses under control, in the simple belief that what went on was wrong. As from CB11, he was accused by many of them of being a grandstanding whinger, but when the scandal hit, many of them must have wished they had listened to him.

  6. @Pete B

    Well you can patronise with pity, but actually filling in a form IS a real difficulty for some. Any number of reasons, reading difficulties, partially sighted, etc. On the other hand, they might have other socially valuable traits some others lack, like… empathy and stuff. But the other point is such things drop off the radar when over-burdened. For some, filling in the firm isn’t a problem in principle, it’s that other things dominate.

    Enjoy the chess. (I favour the Naidorf myself…)

  7. Survation releasing a new London mayor poll at midnight.

    Might be interesting – or totally boring. :-)

  8. @AU

    Funny, I woz gonna mention Nudge, but wanted to go easy on Pete. To be fair, I was only gonna mention the fandom of the book in a general sense: the salient point you make about opting in or out had escaped me. Imagine that…

    (And of course, Polling could nudge peeps…)

  9. Carfrew
    I’m not joining your discussion with Pete B but I just want to point out that there is a large print version of the form available on the government website for the partially sighted.

    Also, have you ever considered that someone who can’t be bothered/hasn’t the time etc to register, probably won’t be bothered/won’t have the time etc to vote either.

    The government has made the process as easy as it could be. Do we really have to spoon feed people even more? What happened to personal responsibility.

    Goodnight.

  10. Khan (LAB): 49% Goldsmith (CON): 34% Whittle (UKIP): 5% Pidgeon (LDEM): 3% Berry (GRN): 3% (via Survation)

    Second prefs: Khan 60%, Goldsmith 40%.

    Arse kicking for Islamophobia to be expected.

  11. @Alec

    “I’ve met John Mann on several occasions and he seems to be an exceptionally humble and pleasant individual, but he does care about basic Labour values, so gets up the nose of many of his colleagues who take a less principled line about such matters.”

    You’ve met him, I haven’t, so I defer to your better knowledge of the man but I think you make rather grand and inflated claims on his behalf. I can only judge him on his public utterances, deeds and gestures, and I don’t warm to him at all. I get the impression of a sanctimonious man, always wise after the event, quick to condemn and who tends to visit the scene of an accident just after it’s occurred, telling everybody who wants to listen why he’d predicted it would happen all along.

    I tend to prefer people who arrive at accidents with the sole intention of helping the wounded.

    Just my opinion, though. I could be hopelessly wrong about the man.

  12. It would be easier to take him seriously if he had not spent four years slagging off Ed Miliband at every opportunity.

  13. @ Crossbat11

    ‘Just my opinion, though. I could be hopelessly wrong about the man.’

    That ‘Mann’ was in my CLP for a number of years and your assessment of him is closer to my own, than Alec’s. However, I experienced him as being more calculating and ruthless than your description. I feel pretty certain that he would have known exactly what he was doing in making a public scene with Ken Livingston… and that removing the leading left winger from the NEC was his intention from the start. It would be entirely consistent with his exploits in my local LP.

  14. @Robert Newark

    Can’t believe I’m having to explain this stuff but anyways…

    1) If you have difficulties with vision, requiring them to surf the web as well as doing the form is upping the burden

    2) Of course I have considered the possibility someone not “bothered” to be registered may not vote. But it may be they are bothered, but overwhelmed. Voting is different anyway, it’s hard to forget when the day is devoted to it, there’s a day off work for many etc…

    But anyway, the more extra hoops you add to jump through, the more likely some won’t manage it. As we tend to find in practice.

    3) The govt. isn’t making it simpler, they are adding hoops…

  15. I’ve been following the bookies on Oddschecker.
    As of this morning you can get 12/1 on Zac Goldsmith and only 1/12 on Sadiq Khan and it’s all been moving strongly in Sadiq’s favour throughout April. A bit puzzling, however, that Sandi Toksvig (who isn’t standing) has been tracking at 125/1 for a while but moved sharply in to 66/1 on Wednesday. At this rate she’ll overtake Zac before election day.

    Meanwhile ‘Leave’ has gradually drifted out and you can currently get 5/2 as against only 1/3 for ‘remain’

  16. ALEC

    I agree with & support your defence of John Mann.

    He is a decent & honourable MP. By comparison, the words neccessary do describe Ken Livingstone are not permitted on this board.

  17. I don’t remember this love for John Mann when he talks about establishment child abuse.

    Odd that.

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/21/last-living-suspect-harvey-proctor-vip-paedophile-ring-inquiry-will-face-no-charges

    The former MP for Billericay and Basildon said MPs including Zac Goldsmith, Tom Watson and John Mann who made public comments implying the guilt of high-profile paedophiles should apologise on the floor of the House of Commons.

    Proctor said the three MPs “should hang their heads in shame” for making “self-serving” comments on claims that a VIP child sex ring ran out of Westminster.

    Funny how loyalties can change when elections are imminent.

    I’ll be glad once the mayoral election is out of the way.

  18. SYZYGY

    @”removing the leading left winger from the NEC was his intention from the start. It would be entirely consistent with his exploits in my local LP.”

    This seems to me to sum up Labour’s little difficulties since JC took over.

    The Left/Centre factionalism rises to the surface of every internal difference. And when it does so -as here-in a sort of attack on one side in a row about attitudes to Jews , it gives the impression that being far enough Left, rather than being a decent human being is what matters in the Labour Party today.

    Mind you, the Conservative Party had better learn as they watch these contortions. If post Referendum relationships in the Parliamentary Conservative Party are predicated on how you voted in the Referendum, we will be seeing a re-run of Labour’s rows with knobs on.

  19. CB11

    @” who tends to visit the scene of an accident just after it’s occurred”

    Perhaps you should check his record -he was trying to stop this sort of “accident” a decade ago.

    “John Mann chairs the All-Party Parliamentary Group against Antisemitism.[10] The Group commissioned the All-Party Parliamentary Inquiry into Antisemitism in 2005. The inquiry panel, chaired by former Europe Minister Denis MacShane, gathered written and oral evidence on antisemitism in Britain and published a report of their findings on 7 September 2006. The panel’s recommendations included improved reporting and recording of antisemitic attacks; a crackdown on anti-Jewish activity on university campuses; and improved international co-operation to prevent the spread of racist material online. In May 2009 John Mann received the American Jewish Committee’s Jan Karski Award in recognition of his commitment to fighting antisemitism in all of its forms.[11]”

    WIKI

  20. @Syzygy

    I’m interested in your assessment of Mann, based as it is on your experience of him as your local MP, and it appears to bear out the impression I’ve formed of him, albeit from afar and via the media, but I don’t want to get into a running debate about him. He obviously has his admirers, and I respect their views, but those like you and I will never agree with them I suspect, and vice versa, so I fear another dialogue of the deaf opening up again.

    I don’t like his sort, and probably never will, but that’s just me, I suppose. I’m going to leave it that.

    @Colin,

    See above. I respect your opinion of Mann, but we’re going to get absolutely nowhere at all exchanging our very different views about him. Probably not the place to do so anyway.

  21. CB11

    I wasn’t seeking to exchange views on Mann with you. We differ -clearly.

    But I was trying to correct your assertion that his spat with KL was an example of his ” visit (to) the scene of an accident just after it’s occurred, telling everybody who wants to listen why he’d predicted it would happen all along.”

    It seems reasonable to assume that his decade long fight against this particular sort of “accident” might go some way to explaining why he was so heated in confrontation with KL.

  22. @Bert
    I don’t recall ever mentioning his eligibility. Nice try, Redrich. Regarding the point about democracy, I would largely agree with you, however, there are problems with postal vote fraud, multiple voting, and household block voting. I’m not for one second suggesting that any single community is more guilty of that than any other, or it’s more or less likely to happen in Tower Hamlets or Taunton. :)

    You really give me far too much credit for being so Machiavellian in my use of language, I was using eligibility more in the following terms 2 regarded as suitable or desirable, especially for marriage, rather than 1 qualified to be chosen for a position or allowed a privilege. It was also meant purely in a political context so apologies if you felt I was implying anything else.

    Totally agree on the electoral fraud point – all parties have their angels and demons. From my side the timing of the spat with Mann and Livingstone could not have come at a worse time as it has knocked the issue of the electoral commission requesting an extension to the investigation of Tory electoral expenses in the GE down the news pecking order. Whilst I think neither issue will have a major impact on voting next week, the Ken Mann show is not doing Labour any favours.

  23. @Colin

    “It seems reasonable to assume that his decade long fight against this particular sort of “accident” might go some way to explaining why he was so heated in confrontation with KL.”

    Fair point and I hadn’t realised that he’d been such a long-standing campaigner against anti-Semitism. I salute him for that but my misgivings about the man were rather encapsulated by the way he behaved yesterday and the manner in which he harangued Livingstone in full view of a variety of TV crews and journalists. This behaviour chimes more than a little with Syzygy’s experiences of him as her local MP.

  24. Good morning all from a cloudy but mild Reigate. Lots of peeps must be taking an extended long weekend because the A31 was quite normal this morning compared to a few days back.

    Okay so I watched Question Time last night and credit where credit is due I don’t think I’ve seen a better performance from any politician on the program before than that of Andy Burnham and Alex Salmond. Both MP’s were a credit to themselves and to politics.

    Andy Burnham captured the mood of the nation when he spoke on Hillsborough and that of the families journey fighting for justice and the Tory MP gave an excellent account of himself when he acknowledged the hard work and dedication Burnham had personally put into fighting for justice.

    Alex Salmond showed true compassion when he spoke of the unaccompanied child refugees across Europe and the refusal of the UK to accept 3,000 child refugees and on the EU even though I disagree with Samond’s pro EU stance he hit the nail on the head when he said people should ignore project fear from both sides.

    Usually on QT it’s the none politicians who receive most of the applause but last night the applause went to the 3 MP’s.

    My only criticism of the program was that in this week of all weeks the program should had been held on Merseyside and not Humberside.

  25. @CB11 – you probably also didn’t realise he was a campaigner on MPs expenses years before the scandal erupted (and became very unpopular with many MPs across the divide because of this).

    I am with @Colin on this, in that you have, somewhat unusually for one of the more sensible posters on here, posted something from a position of complete ignorance.

    If you are going to use phrases like “visit the scene of an accident just after it’s occurred..” when personally attacking someone, you really need to check your facts first.

  26. @Alec
    Fair enough. However, having only been dimly aware of the existence of Mr Mann I formed a very poor impression of him yesterday. Livingstone’s comments were both highly offensive and bizarre but I really don’t know what purpose was served by the on-camera ‘debate’.

  27. Good Afternoon from a lovely Bournemouth sea side and a long weekend ahead.
    In terms of polling I think John Mann’s campaign against anti semitism within society and especially in the Labour Party which surfaced yesterday, may well damage Labour due to publicity.

    However I think his justice-led campaign will lead to a new leadership election after the EU Referendum.
    Rachel Shabi has just said, fairly, in my opinion that J Corbyn is not anti semitic, but many people around him are.

  28. “If you are going to use phrases like “visit the scene of an accident just after it’s occurred..”

    ————

    It is indeed difficult to find visit the scene before it has occurred. Unless you knew it was going to happen. In which case, would it be an accident, and why didn’t you warn peeps? (And visiting just as it occurs might be problematic too…)

  29. CL45

    The Blairites would lose again, although perhaps Labour would end up with a more effective leader.

  30. On John Mann – it is possible for someone to be a tireless campaigner for good causes and also be a bloviating self-promoting tw*t.

  31. “It gives the impression that being far enough Left, rather than being a decent human being is what matters in the Labour Party today.”

    ————–

    But is it the left stirring up trouble or the more Blairite? (Perhaps worried, as Roger Mexico once suggested, that it mght become more obvious with the advance of the left that the neliberalism etc. of Blairism might not have been as “necessary” as they made out…)

  32. CHRISLANE1945
    “Good Afternoon from a lovely Bournemouth sea side and a long weekend ahead.
    In terms of polling I think John Mann’s campaign against anti semitism within society and especially in the Labour Party which surfaced yesterday, may well damage Labour due to publicity”
    ________

    Good afternoon to you in lovely Bournemouth and likewise a long weekend ahead. In fact my second in as many weeks.

    It appears the First Minister of Wales may have the same thought process a yourself.

    “Don’t come Jez! Corbyn told to stay away by Welsh Labour after Ken Livingstone ‘anti-semitism’ row”

    “Labour leader cancels trip with local party worried he will have negative effect on Assembly elections”
    ………..

    Personally speaking I think the whole stupid thing is just a storm in a tiny tea cup and I would rather our elected politicians put the boot into Israel’s appalling treatment of the Palestinians and the building of illegal settlements on Palestinian territory and not concentrate on a daft tweet and two bigger than life personalities having a square go at each other in front of the media.

    John Mann had a point to make but talk about armature dramatics!! It was orchestrated Huff and bluster from a remedial loud mouthed opportunistic selfish glorified loony.

    Old Corby should also chuck that nutter out of the party for the way he went about with his showmanship and that was exactly what it was…He was looking at the cameras when mouthing off to Livingston.

    I can understand why the First Minister of Wales wants to distance himself from yesterdays circus but it ain’t the fault of ol Corby.

  33. “armature dramatics”

    He’s a real human dynamo!

    Certainly a lot of spinning going on.

    (I am presuming that is not a deliberate typo).

  34. HAWTHORN

    ‘#amateur dramatics :-)

    Yes it was a typo

  35. @ Anarch and Carfew

    :)

  36. @Alec

    “I am with @Colin on this, in that you have, somewhat unusually for one of the more sensible posters on here, posted something from a position of complete ignorance.
    If you are going to use phrases like “visit the scene of an accident just after it’s occurred..” when personally attacking someone, you really need to check your facts first.”

    Understood. It’s possible I’m being a little unfair to Mann and ignoring his many past, and present, good deeds. You and Colin have brought things to my attention that I wasn’t fully aware of.

    He just isn’t my cup of tea, that’s all, but I won’t labour the point any longer.

  37. A lengthy a measured post on the current antisemitism debate has gone into moderation. Presumably because it actually made reference to polling, which seems to be out of fashion here these days.

    I will try a filleted version:

    There was a piece of work that YouGov carried out for the Campaign Against Antisemitism in 2015 that attracted rather a lot of coverage at the time.

    https://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Annual-Antisemitism-Barometer-Report.pdf

    The headlines splashed then were that ‘almost 50% of British people are antisemitic”.

    These was arrived at because that proportion (well, 45%) of the 3,000+ respondents agreed with one of a number of traditionally anti-Jewish sentiments / tropes put in front of them…

    The proportion agreeing with 2 statements fell to 26% and 3 to 17%.

    The questioning in this case seems to be very fair and the statements do read like clearly anti-Jewish positions.

    This is not always the case with such surveys, where I have seen ambiguous statements related to ‘disproportionate influence’ regarded as prejudice if agreed with, whereas, strictly speaking, numerical over-representation relative to size of population e.g. amongst MPs and Peers does exist, in the same way as under representation exists amongst women and other BME communities.

    Given this, the survey does appear to carry weight.

    Frustratingly, I can’t find the full tables anywhere and they are not supplied by the CAA (perhaps AW can help). However, it is clear that testing was carried out to see if antisemitic views are more prevalent in the supporters of any particular party.

    The only note made on this is that one party stands out: UKIP. Across the board their supporters were on average 9% more likely to hold such views.

    The other variations are regional – Scotland is the least prejudiced area surveyed, London and the North (home to substantial Jewish populations) the most.

    And religious: those not of a ‘Christian, Catholic or Atheist’ (odd wording) background were found to be more prejudiced and men more antisemitic (by some way: 51% to 39%) than women.

    Finally, one of the traditional measures of prejudice ‘would you be unhappy if a family member were to marry…’ came back at a relatively low 10%.

    Overall, this seems to paint a picture of a society in which familiar and damaging stereotypes persist, but in which the vast majority (73%) say they would have no problem accepting a Jewish person as a family member.

    There are regional and religious differences, but the only political one identified in this large sample group is the higher level of prejudice amongst UKIP voters.

    It therefore seems reasonable to conclude (given the absence of any other exception reporting) that there are quite likely to be people harbouring antisemitic views in all the political parties, particularly UKIP. The question, therefore is of party management.

    The self-selected polling of the Jewish community on matters of community safety paints a very unhappy picture of the experience of life in contemporary Britain as someone of that faith. I haven’t really referred to it as it is a self-selecting poll.

  38. Rather fed up as two posts attempting to introduce polling on the question of how widespread antisemitism is in the UK have gone into moderation.

    Anyone who is interested might want to have a look at this 2015 poll carried out by YouGov

    https://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Annual-Antisemitism-Barometer-Report.pdf

    I won’t reiterate the findings too much for risk of further moderation.

    However there are regional, gender and religious differences and also a political one: UKIP voters are 9% ahead of any other political party in the degree of their dislike of this community.

    As there’s nothing on the other political parties, I can only assume there was nothing exceptional in those results – clearly there are prejudiced people everywhere – and in numbers – it is how they are dealt with that matters.

  39. @Syzygy

    Soz for not giving sufficient attention to your post about the two Santas thing a little while back. I was a bit busy that weekend and other stuff took over a bit.

    The two Santa’s thing is interesting because it suggests that politically it’s advantageous for both republicans and democrats to run deficits in order to leave their opponents with little cash to spend on tax cuts or services in order to woo voters.

    What that analysis leaves out, is that cuts and the drive for a surplus might be politically of interest to the right for purposes of shrinking the state, or at least shrinking the bits normally useful politically for the left, thus curtailing the left politically.

    It does in theory though leave the left with more spending options should they come to power UNLESS… by the time you clear the deficit you have saddled with so much much debt it still limits things…

  40. https://uk.celebrity.yahoo.com/nine-sentenced-over-fraud-elderly-linked-bank-terror-041736356.html

    “Nine young men will be sentenced for their part in a £900,000 fraud on the elderly linked with the so-called “Bank of Terror” in Syria.

    The fraudsters targeted elderly people aged between 72 and 94 from Dorset, Cornwall, Kent, London, Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire.

    Former X Factor contestant Nathan Fagan-Gayle, 29, from London, was convicted of laundering £20,000 from 73-year-old Elizabeth Curtis who was duped into handing it over by a fake police officer in May 2014.

    Breaking down in tears during a taped interview, Miss Curtis said: “I was absolutely stunned and shocked and could not believe I had been so stupid and naive as to be taken in.”

    In all, Miss Curtis was persuaded to transfer around £130,000 to different accounts.

    The court heard singer-songwriter Fagan-Gayle, from Tower Hamlets, east London, went on a shopping spree and used some of the cash to hire a car in the United States.

    In a separate trial last year, Mohamed Dahir, 23, Shakaria Aden, 22, and Yasser Abukar, 24, all from north London, were found guilty of conspiracy to commit fraud between May 2014 and May 2015.

    Following the convictions, it emerged that Jeremy Corbyn, in his role as Islington North MP, had sent a letter in support of Dahir’s original successful bail application last May.

    Other defendants had pleaded guilty to their part in the fraud – either as conspirators or money launderers – and are also due to be sentenced by Judge Anuja Dhir QC.

    They are: Fahim Islam, 21 of east London; Ahmed Ahmed, 23 of north London; and Makhzhumi Abukar, 23 from north London; Anrul Islam, 24, from Dagenham; and Warsame Sheik, 30, from Harrow.

    The juries were not told that the con was uncovered by the Met’s Counter Terrorism Command (SO15) after a separate terror probe found suspicious payments into a bank account of someone who is now in Syria.

    Speaking after the earlier convictions in December last year, Commander Richard Walton, head of the Met’s Counter Terrorism Command (SO15) said: “This was a scam on a huge national scale detected by specialist financial investigators who have stopped the targeting of even more victims.

    “We uncovered this fraud after a separate terrorist investigation found suspicious payments into a bank account of an individual who is now believed to have travelled to Syria.”

    Good old Mr Corbyn.

  41. ASSIDUOSITY

    From your link.

    “Britain is at a tipping point: unless antise#itism is met with
    zero tolerance, it will continue to grow and British Jews
    may increasingly question their place in their own country”
    _____

    Firstly I put a # antise#itism because I think that word might trigger the auto mod.

    Anyway tipping point? We had decades of troubles between Catholics and protestants in NI yet the UK was the UK at a tipping point. We have Mosques under attack every few months in the UK but again are we at a tipping point?

    What is it with antise#itism and it’s apparent predominance over all other hate and racist crimes towards other faiths and cultures? Is there a special reason that our media and some in the establishment see antise#itism is a bigger issue than racism against other people?

    Like I said before, we should never fall into the trap where by criticising Israel’s appalling civil rights abuse is conveniently flagged up as antise#itism.

  42. From a polling point of view, fine differences between antise#itism and antiZionism may be lost on the general public. If public perception is that Labour is full of racial bigots, or that they have handled the various PR disasters badly, then VI might well be affected.
    Support from unprejudiced people for Labour might be reduced. This could be balanced by an influx who think racial bigotry is a good thing. Of course they’d then have an even worse problem. The next couple of polls will be interesting. Are any scheduled before the May 5th elections?

  43. Without naming names there is really a shade of the Monty Python four Yorkshiremen sketch on this thread

  44. I think that the treatment of Palestine by Israel is a disgrace and if it was any other country then there would be outrage but Israel gets away literally with murder because of US and Western support.

    What am I? anti-Semitic or anti-Zionist, terms seem interchangeable.

  45. PETE B

    If the Labour VI is affected then I would put it down to the circus show between Livingston and Mann and not necessary down to antise#itism within Labour. I don’t think voters like seeing their party representatives arguing live on TV with each other.

  46. My prediction for the local elections.

    Both Labour and the Conservatives will do badly.

  47. @Robert

    On the side issue you raised, of spoon-feeding, well in this instance they are putting up obstacles, but on the more general point of spoon-feeding…

    …People often benefit from a bit of spoon-feeding. Tax incentives for pensions, ISAs, Help-to-buy, all that QE for the South East, etc. etc.

    Boomers were spoonfed full employment, free tuition, affordable housing etc., and later on cheap privatisation shares, policy to inflate house price assets etc.

    Youngsters get rather less of these things and now peeps want to keep upping the burden.

    Modern life is increasingly complex and it helps to

  48. @Robert (cont’)

    Modern life is getting more and more complex and fast-paced and it helps to be spoon-fed some stuff so we can get on with our specialisms. It’s efficient. Another example is food, sugar taxes etc. In an era of the confusopoly, where harmful stuff might be buried in the small print, it’s efficient to have some nannying.

    (p.s. maybe you’d like to tax boomers much more to compensate for all the spoon-feeding?…)

  49. @WB

    “Without naming names there is really a shade of the Monty Python four Yorkshiremen sketch on this thread”

    ———–

    There’ll doubtless be many opportunities to be smug about that in future as who’s more deserving, who’s responsible etc. are perennial concerns of politics and polling.

  50. Hawthorn of Pedant’s Corner points out that the four Yorkshireman sketch was from the At Last The 1948 Show.

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