The post-speech polls

The first poll conducted after Cameron’s Europe speech, YouGov’s on Friday, didn’t appear to show any impact on voting intention. However, this weekend we have a further four polls conducted after the speech (the Opinium one was mostly done prior to the speech). Here they are:

Angus Reid/Sunday Express have the Conservatives on 30% (up three) and Labour on 39% (down three) – the online version of the article doesn’t mention the UKIP or Lib Dem scores. The poll was conducted on Thursday and Friday.

ComRes/IoS/Sunday Mirror has the Conservatives up 5 on 33%, Labour unchanged on 39%, UKIP down 4 points on 10%. As I wrote yesterday, some of this appears to be due to ComRes treating likelihood to vote differently in their December poll, but even with consistent treatment of likelihood to vote the poll would have shown the Conservatives up 4 or 5 points, though it would probably also have shown Labour down slightly.

Survation/Mail on Sunday has the Conservatives on 31%, up two, Labour unchanged on 38% and UKIP down two on 14%.

YouGov in the Sunday Times has topline figures of CON 35%, LAB 41%, LDEM 12%, UKIP 7%. Compared to the average of YouGov’s polls last week that equates to the Conservatives being up by about two, Labour down by about two and UKIP down by about one.

In each individual poll the changes are relatively small, but they are consistent across the pollsters, so we can be fairly confident that the Conservatives have enjoyed a small boost from the referendum promise and the positive publicity around it. UKIP appear to have dropped slightly, but not massively (the biggest drop they had, that in the ComRes poll, was mostly due to methodological variation). The shift is hardly a game changing degree though.

Looking at the other questions, there is some stark variation in how people say they’d vote in an EU referendum. YouGov’s figures are very similar to what they were showing early in the week – in a straight referendum question 37% say they would vote to stay, 39% say they would vote to leave. If David Cameron were to renegotiate and recommend a yes vote then 50% of people say they would vote to stay, compared to 25% who would vote to leave – the contrast is almost entirely down to Conservative voters, who would currently vote to leave, but would vote to stay on renegotiated terms.

Angus Reid asked how people would vote if Cameron did manage to repatriate some powers, 34% said they would vote to stay in, 34% said they would vote to leave.

Survation found 50% saying Britain should leave the EU, 36% that they should stay. If Cameron wins back some powers, 43% of those saying Britain should leave say they would consider voting to stay.


408 Responses to “The post-speech polls”

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  1. Turk

    I think its called a dipstick

    A little bit more useful than a clegg

  2. Just seen who Spurs would have got….City at the Etihad! Don’t feel anywhere near as bad now! :P

  3. RIN
    Could well have done, I am ‘liberal’ on some social issues. I agree with Cameron’s stance on many things, don’t agree with others. Overall, I remain supportive to date.

  4. ToH – re GDP and VI.

    I take the view that Economic data rarely affects VI as the data is merely recording something that has already happened. Occassionally the narrative can be affected for a few days and be important during the actual GE but it is experiences that drive VI.

    So the GDP will not assist Lab and hurt Con and the unemployment figures likewise but vice-versa.

    It seems clear to me that Lab VI has dropped in the last week and Con increased. The Con increase not very to interesting imo as it is just the low hanging fruit they would have got back in the run up to the GE anyhow being the most Euro-Sceptic of the main parties.

    If the Lab fall is merely the softest post 2010 new VI then I am equally unpurturbed but if it turns out to be the start of a drift away of support that we thought was more solid it could be a worry. Too early to say but FWIW I don’t think EM could have take any other approach in response to the leader of the Conservative Party’s speech. It is possible communication could have been better I guess but with a mostly pro-referundum press that was always going to be hard.

  5. CB11

    Best to refer to them as ASTON Villa as they then come second every year in the alphabetical league table.

    Which is nice.

  6. MitM and Ambi
    I am not sure the exact figures, but have been wondering what of your 35 column inches of vacuous and witless insult and second-hand and pooly informed exchanges, on the current page alone, I might want to engage in, and decided absolutely none of it. Could you give it a break?

  7. @Turk

    “I don’t know what it’s technical name is I want to call it a Clegg anybody got any idea what it is.”

    Some suggestions:

    1) A feature

    2) A spare part

    3) A councillor.

    (apologies to councillors everywhere, with the exception of the ones in my own ward)

  8. A ‘Clegg’ could be a broken pledge, oops withdraw that as partisan, damn it too late aleady posted

  9. MiM

    Who pays for the Labour Party ?

    You might be surprised … individual members like me for a start. Minimum annual subs are now £44.50 with higher rates for higher earners. All Labour MPs, MEPS, AMs, Police Commissioners etc and Councillors pay a % of their wages to central LP. For unemployed/ pensioners its £22.50 p.a. – rather a lot actually if you are on basic benefits. For members of affiliated TUs it’s also £22.50, on top of their TU subs. Its OMOV across the board. There is no TU block vote for leadership elections etc. any more – its history.

    Trade Unions are absolutely fundamental to Labour’s beliefs and credibility with working class voters (who still exist…). We will never abandon the link.

    Labour’s national policies are worked out by the Parliamentary Leadership (Senedd in Wales), by experts, by individual members who elect representatives for policy formation and by other key stakeholders including Trade Unions, Fabian Society and the Co-op. Its a slightly different mix at local level where Councillors and emebrs have the major role (much more than TUs in my experience). You can argue over the details but no one has a dominant position.
    Tories are more elitist, but still have a good dose of democracy. LibDems probably more puristically democratic (but what good is that if your leader promptly abandons a democratic policy of repealing tuition fees ;>) ?). None of them are perfect, all of them are reasonable. It’s not going to change because people without experience of how this works think it should be thrown out of the window.

    In UK I think you need legislation to stop an individual from using huge personal wealth to “buy” too much dominance in a political party but beyond that its entirely up to businesses, unions, other groups and individuals to take part in the process. It works. All 3 parties have evolved from within – and will continue to so.

  10. @Paul C

    As for the Villa, I’m afraid, on current form, we’re in danger of returning to the hapless days of the 1960s when I started supporting them. We descended to the old Third Division then and were the butt of many a joke. Malcom Allison renamed us Aston Vanilla – the team everybody likes to lick!

    I fear we may be a bit like that again now. Desperate days but I’ll always be a Villa fan, like my Dad and Grandad before me and my two sons who have inherited the bug in much the same way as I did. My Grandad actually died at Villa Park during the Villa v Spurs game in September 1965 and we’ve got a plaque outside the ground in his memory. A special place and a special club for me and a source of enormous harmless distraction and pleasure for 50 years now. The sporting soundtrack of my life in many ways.

  11. TURK

    Surely it performed better before you did this?

  12. @Jim Jam

    “A ‘Clegg’ could be a broken pledge, oops withdraw that as partisan, damn it too late aleady posted”

    ‘To Clegg’: to lose one’s spine at the crucial moments.

    e.g. “So, did you tell the manager what you thought of him?” “Sorry, I Clegged.”

  13. CB11

    You can choose your wife, but not your footy team. My earlier tip re things being all-important and totally meaningless simultaneously is a philosophy designed to exorcise sporting pain.

    Villa have a very good manager so I expect it to improve but, as with Liverpool, history counts for very little now

  14. Despite Chrislane’s “a bit high for the LDs” I wonder if I and others wrote them off prematurely………………… there are signs of a small revival, they are reASONABLY CONSISTENT AND IF YOU COMBINE INCUMBENCY WITH CONSTITUENCIES WHERE VOTERS ARE DESPERATE TO KEEP EITHER lABOUR OR tORIES OUT may do ok

    and soddit, I am not retyping that – just read it quietly.

  15. CB11

    I hope this isn’t tasteless but who won that game?

  16. @John Pilgrim,

    “I am not sure the exact figures, but have been wondering what of your 35 column inches of vacuous and witless insult and second-hand and pooly informed exchanges, on the current page alone, I might want to engage in, and decided absolutely none of it. Could you give it a break?”

    Excuse me? What did I say that you found so offensive?

  17. @CrossBat1,

    Villa’s problem is that they have failed to keep hold of their best players – and they did have quite a few a few years back.

    I hope you stay up. I have a feeling that you will.

  18. Ambi

    Just carry on posting, don’t let him deter you, it’s rather ironic that he called you and I vacuous when he wrote the most vacuous post on this thread so far, nothing of substance to actually contribute just an attack on you and I.

    Ignore people like John, rather than contribute anything to the debate they just seek to insult, personally if I were you I’d pay him no attention at all. By not being part of his tribe (think he’s one of the red ones) we’ve insulted his tribe, that’s all. It’s akin to Bush’s you’re with us or against us.

  19. “Just carry on posting”.

    Ah, I will. I always do. Was just out stargazing…saw a close up of the moon. It was such an breathtaking sight, nothing can spoil my mood tonight, especially a daft insult from someone who clearly hasn’t understood or read properly through my posts.

  20. *a breathtaking.

    My ipod doesn’t like me today!

  21. “What I got out of the report was really that there was a huge number of myths about the numbers of people who [unsure] entered Boston and the drain on public services. There was a rather charming codicil to the report which said actually, that the maternity unit..unit at the [Pilgrim?] Hospital had probably been kept open because of the increase in the population of Boston rather than having been closed”.

    I don’t want to bang on about it, but this is as good a transcript as I can manage of what Mary Beard said on QT that seems to have so riled @maninthemiddle and others. Prior to this she explained about the Boston Council study that she was quoting from, and explained why she thought it was the best text she had found to deal with the issues in the local area, and was far better than what remote politicians said about the matter.

    When she said this, appearing to address the woman who had asked the question, her delivery appeared to be completely polite, and sensitive. It’s worth noting that she began her quote with the words ‘What I got out of the report…..’ – she was talking about the report, not accusing the woman of making myths.

    Later on, the original questioner is asked by Dimbleby to comment and she raises a number of further points, and is then asked by Dimbleby why local people don’t take the jobs (‘picking cabbages’). The women begins her answer ‘I don’t know..’ at which point Nigel Farage can be seen saying “I do” and Mary Beard can clearly be heard saying “Exploitative labour”. Dimpleby is heard asking Beard “What are you saying – exploitative labour?” and we can hear Beard answer “Yes” and see the camera on her as she nods. This exchange seems to have captured a moment of agreement between Beard and Farage.

    Having now watched this in full and in great detail, I’m really, really struggling to understand what on earth the fuss was about and what @maninthemiddle is talking about.

  22. @Jim Jam – “A ‘Clegg’ could be a broken pledge…”

    A clegg is a horsefly – Haematopota pluvialis.

    Small, irritating, and with no known useful purpose.

  23. Alec

    Before she mentioned the report she referred to the womans concerns as myths.

    Clearly I’m not the only one who has been offended as she has received a torrent of verbal insults (and supposedly threats of violence which I have yet to see any proof of)

    In the guardian article, she dismissed the people again saying it was misogynistic etc, but she’s not received such a backlash before and she appears fairly frequently, so clearly you’re wrong about her being all sweetness and light this time around, and wrong about me being the only one offended by her remarks.

    She did dismiss the concerns as myths, she wouldn’t have said it otherwise, and her tone wasn’t polite it was condescending and rude.

    You can argue all you like that it wasn’t her own view (very unsual to be quoting a report you don’t agree with) but she has past form on making hugely offensive statements so I’m not inclined to believe her.

    Anyways she achieved her purpose, she’s got her 15 minutes of fame, and caused a bit of scandal, no doubt David Starkey or Owen Jones will be appearing soon to try and stop her, Anna Soubry had a good go in the most recent one but didn’t quite manage to cause the same level of offence.

  24. no doubt David Starkey or Owen Jones will be appearing soon to try and stop her,

    should read

    no doubt David Starkey or Owen Jones will be appearing soon to try and TOP her,

  25. Maninthe middle is a troll, has been from the start. Don’t bite. He, she or it will just feed you stuff to get you riled up.

    I still think it’s the Max of Kent person with a new name. Just don’t bother with it.

  26. Alec – I was bitten by a Clegg (in fact sveral bites) near the Dudden Estuary as a child and very irritating it was to.
    Never cared for Cleggs since.

  27. Nickp

    We are all trolls here

  28. “By not being part of his tribe (think he’s one of the red ones)”

    I don’t dislike Labourites at all….most of my family are Labour voters, as well as one of my best friends! Just dislike people who are rude and aggressive. Most Labour voter/supporters are neither.

  29. @maninthemiddle – “Before she mentioned the report she referred to the womans concerns as myths.”

    That’s a complete lie.

    I have transcribed completely and fairly Beard’s response to the woman, and this contains the only time the word ‘myth’ was uttered by Beard.

    Prior to this, Beard answered the original question, which was posed by another woman. In this response, she highlighted the findings of the report she quoted. This was a fair summary, with Beard saying the report struck a good balance between denying there was a problem and claiming ‘catastrophe’. At no point did she use the word myth.

    What is quite funny is that I really don’t think you’ve seen the actual broadcast. I think you’ve just picked up the online abuse and thought you would have a go yourself. It’s interesting that Beard had Nigel Farage sitting next to her on the panel, and they ended up agreeing, with no sense in the audience that Beard had made such an offending faux pas.

    You’re clearly too bone idle (or bone headed) to bother to research what you post about, and as a result you have embarrassed yourself on this forum to a degree not seen for a long while.

  30. @ Nick P (11.34)

    “Maninthe middle is a troll, has been from the start. Don’t bite. He, she or it will just feed you stuff to get you riled up.

    I still think it’s the Max of Kent person with a new name. Just don’t bother with it.”

    Having just spent a couple of hours trying to catch up on the 200+ comments, you express my thoughts exactly. What a waste of time. On seeing his ref to Kent, I became convinced he is Max mark II. Hopefully AW will repeat the treatment he gave to Max mark I

  31. John Pilgrim’s silence has been duly noted. Guess he couldn’t find anything.

  32. “I don’t dislike Labourites at all…”

    Me neither, I dislike that individual who attacked us not the party itself. Also we do have to be thankful to Labour for a lot, the NHS, minimum wage etc are just some examples.

    Alec

    Think whatever you want to think, I did watch the broadcast live and that’s why I recall so clearly what she did, and wasn’t surprised when I read about the backlash she received.

    I’m off to bed now, but if you think you are correct and that Mrs Beard said nothing offensive whatsoever then please explain why you think Mrs Beard has received such a backlash from her most recent appearance when no such backlash has occurred before after her appearances? I’ll read your response if you choose to make one in the morning.

  33. This has been quite a sad evening for this site. I don’t think it will be repeated though – I certainly hope not.

  34. “This has been quite a sad evening for this site. I don’t think it will be repeated though – I certainly hope not.”

    It has. I quite agree.

  35. Paul,
    Agreed.

  36. @MIM,

    “Just carry on posting, don’t let him deter you, it’s rather ironic that he called you and I vacuous when he wrote the most vacuous post on this thread so far, nothing of substance to actually contribute just an attack on you and I.”

    I wasn’t even involved with your and Amber’s argument, or your comments about party political funding (and the case of cyber bullying involving Beard, which I repeatedly said was awful). That’s why I can only assume John Pilgrim was lazy when he was reading through my posts?

  37. I haven’t even agreed with a lot of what you have said today, no offence, MIM! That’s why I find John Pilgrim’s lazy remarks so baffling! The only area I have agreed with you today is that we are both broadly centrist in our outlook and would prefer to support a smaller party.

  38. Dips head in.

    Still loads of witless garbage.

    Ducks out again.

  39. (To John Pilgrim) this is an exhaustive list of all my posts this evening…let me know which you found offensive.

    Post 1:

    “@MIM,

    You are quite entitled to believe (and state) that immigration is bad for the UK as long as you phrase it and treat others respectfully. Same goes with a wide range of other issues on political forums, such as abortion, the death penalty, tax evasion, feminism etc. etc.

    But I thought I would add my opinions to the debate….

    I’ve always supported immigration as without it how would we be able to fill up our hospitals with qualified doctors and nurses, our streets with road sweepers etc. Put simply, many immigrants work ‘blimming hard, despite the stereotype, and often do the jobs that other British people wouldn’t do.

    Now obviously immigration has to be controlled, otherwise how would we know who was entering or leaving the UK, especially in this era of worldwide terrorism. We need to protect UK security, and having a chaotic border system would not enable us to do this. But why have a specific numerical aim (i.e. to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands?) How would you arrive at such an arbitrary number? Sounds something a leader would do merely to gain popularity with the general public. Smacks of desperation IMO.

    One of my uni friends is Chinese. Before I knew him, I didn’t think about immigration much. But, to put a long story short, whilst he was studying in the UK….his mum became seriously ill with cancer. His parents were living in America….but the US embassy decided that he couldn’t go to see her during her last few weeks (on holiday) because he was considered a national security threat. I waited outside the US embassy when he was not granted right to holiday to America to see his mum. He couldn’t stop crying, and I felt totally powerless to help him. Shortly after, he was refused the right to go to her funeral. They dealt with him very coldly. A few months after his mother’s death, his British VISA was running out because he didn’t have a job offer. So the irony is that he applied for a Green Card on the basis that his family live in America and was granted permanent residency. But months after her funeral sadly.

    He now lives in New Jersey and I am going to see him this summer. He’s the sweetest guy you could ever meet. He would have been a great asset to the UK if he had been allowed to stay as he is such a hard worker. During this whole ordeal he was also very ill (and continues to be so) because he has aplastic anaemia. He gets tired very easily.

    So, asked which system I prefer – the harsh American immigration system where everyone is treated as a terrorist threat – or the more humane British one – despite it’s many flaws, I would choose the British one every time. My friend also used the National Health Service – another reason to be thankful we are British IMO.”

    Post 2:


    Put simply, my friend changed how I perceive others and the system. I now see the UK system as far from perfect…but what system is? Would I prefer the UK system…no way!

    It also changed how I saw Chinese people and the Chinese culture. I know Chinese people are seen as easy pickings at the moment (probably the only race/culture where you can openly disparage it publicly), but I realise that despite China’s many flaws (which ironically my friend, Cong openly admitted to me) it has many, many good points. The same goes with all cultures and peoples.

    And I say that as someone who considers himself a pragmatist.”

    Post 3:

    “@Paul Croft,

    Thanks.

    “Since you’ve reneged on your very own plan to ignore me ‘cos I am so horrid [your response reTottingham losing to Leeds] may I recommend, for moments like this, when your team has suffered a horribly embarrassing loss to a lower league team [from Yorkshire of al places !!!!!!!] that you avail yourself of my FREE TIP [recently published above and number three in my popular series] and you will realise that it doesn’t really matter.

    [Especially to me of course.]

    I realise life is too short to bear a grudge over something as silly as politics/debates, especially as we don’t even really know each other (internet doesn’t count). So, yes, feel free.”

    Post 4:

    ““Put simply, my friend changed how I perceive others and the system. I now see the UK system as far from perfect…but what system is? Would I prefer the UK system…no way!”

    I meant US! lol.”

    Post 5:

    @Amber,

    “Snap (sort of). I wrote my comment to Colin about China Towns around the world before I saw yours about your friend. I’m glad he is doing okay now.”

    Thanks. He has a bit of a rubbish job at the moment in New Jersey doing something to do with logistics (he works in an office). He works long hours and gets tired a lot. I don’t think the labour laws are great in the US because he couldn’t come to the UK last year and he couldn’t get the time off for me to see him. But he can this summer, and I definitely will see him this summer. His health is ok, but I still worry about him. I know it might sound overly sentimental, but I have tears in my eyes when I am writing about him and thinking of him. My parents love him too (he came to stay with us at the end of time in the UK). I tried to pair him off with my sister at the time but sadly to no avail lol.”

    Post 6:

    “@MIM,

    “Hope your friend is ok, I know it probably doesnt mean much but I wish him all the best, and reading the story made me a little teary too.”

    Thanks.

    I know it might sound silly….being currently unemployed and all….but part of my ambition this year is to set up my own accounting franchise and I have been looking into maybe one day (hopefully) getting him back into the UK via an employment VISA. Sounds ambitious, but I’m prepared to change my life and give everything a go…fed up with not having a job too!

    Even after uni, we used to meet every week inside the British Library in London….I miss those days so much!

  40. Post 7:

    ““But the US has a reason to impose such harsh restrictions on immigration as the white population is falling so fast soon it won’t even be a majority anymore.”

    I think America’s problems run a lot deeper than mere race statistics. Sadly, Americans have a long history of mistreating black people. Until the 1960s, black people were routinely rounded up and murdered by white Americans. Even today, there is lots of evidence that black people are badly treated by the criminal justice system, not to mention many other areas of life.

    I seem to remember reading a book by John Grisham on holiday about the historical abuses of black people in America. I felt so angry and upset that humans could behave so appallingly that, to be honest, I can understand why, even to this day, there is massive resentment in the black community. It’s something that won’t go away overnight, even if many changes were now made to address some of the issues that black people continue to suffer from (i.e. discrimination in the workplace, education, criminal justice system etc).

    The American government should focus on improving education and schools for the black (and minority) communities, as well as addressing discrimination. It should also focus on America’s gun culture as well as introducing far-reaching welfare reforms (such as the right for all to have basic medical care) – though these may have to wait until the US economy has recovered.

    Of course that’s just my opinion.”

    Post 8:

    “@MIM,

    “I’m not talking about civil rights issues.

    I’m talking about the fact that a country is experiencing such mass immigration that the majority race will soon no longer be the majority, now I don’t mean that blacks/hispanics are any less American, what I mean to show is that the scale of immigration must really be huge to be pushing the white demographic under 50%

    A lot of it is because the birth rate is a lot higher amongst black and Hispanics Americans than the white population.”

    Post 9:

    “MIM,

    I don’t personally think changing demographical trends are important to a nation’s general health; how well those groups get on and live together is the only important measure imo.

    Post 10:

    “@MIM,

    “I’m not saying its a problem that the demographics are changing, I’m just using the fact that the demographics are so swiftly changing, as evidence that their is high volumes of immigration, and admittedly a too high birthrate.”

    I see.

    Post 11:

    “Re: Cyber bullying,

    Nobody deserves cyber-bullying, regardless of what they have allegedly or otherwise said. That said, if true, her comments on September 11th were ill-advised and very offensive. But cyber-bullying is never the answer (or justified) against anyone imo.

    Post 12:

    ““But for some reason it all depends on your tribe, if your Labour you probably feel that Mary Beard and Owen Jones are perfectly entitled to say what they say but David Starkey and Edwina Currie are out of order, similarly if your a Tory you probably think the reverse.”

    I don’t actually really like any of these individuals or their opinions! :P

    Post 13:
    “I don’t actually really like any of these individuals or their opinions! :P”

    That is, of course, with the usual caveat that I can only go by what they have allegedly said. To be honest, I didn’t know who Mary Beard was until today….but I certainly don’t agree that American deserved to be slaughtered during September the 11th!!! Or that America was/is/will only be getting what it deserves. I also found Starkey terribly grating and offensive during his rants!”

    Post 14:

    ““That’s because Ambi, like me, you are free from viewing everything through red or blue tinted glasses.”

    I’m one of those who believes in the right mixture of socialist and capitalist policies; I believe in the right to accumulate wealth (within reason, and only IF you earn it – none of this banker/CEO excessive pay nonsense), but I also believe in a national health service, a welfare state (one that is not excessively bloated but really looks after those who need it i.e. the short-term unemployed/ disabled/elderly etc.). Although my opinion on all the three parties is generally quite negative, I think it’s healthy for all of them to go through regular stages of having or sharing power – that way it negates some of the worse effects of all of them. It’s what I love about the British system – none of the parties are likely to stay in power for too long (i.e. more than 15 years).”

    Post 15:

    “For me, the wealth creators are not CEOs or bankers, but those who contribute their own funds and money, at their own risk, to help grow a company and create jobs (i.e. entrepreneurs). They are the ones who you must encourage and reward IMO.

    I also think it would be incredibly beneficial to those at the bottom of the pay scale, if they had their wages increased. I think Miliband’s suggestion of a working wage is a good one. I would also love to end all this job snobbery that seems so commonplace these days….for me, the unsung heroes are not just entrepreneurs or ‘wealth creators’ or managers but the people cleaning our streets and public toilets for such appalling wages. They should be accorded more respect within our society. Same goes with carers etc.

    I won’t hold my breath though.

    Post 16:

    “@MIM,

    “But I really do think we need the emergence of some new parties in the UK, I’m not talking about UKIP, I’m talking about new parties that just do what is right and what the public wants, as Ian Hislop said on question time (or maybe Amber thinks he didn’t) politicians should be listening to and bending to public opinion, that’s democracy in action.”

    I agree. I have voted for small parties in the past….I have voted for the greens at 2 GEs before now, but when I read through their manifesto before the last GE I found it a bit lacking in substance. Plus, it was a bit too much to the left IMO. So I didn’t vote for them last time round. I would love a small party alternative though.

    Post 17:

    “@CrossBat1,

    “I fear that your quest for a political party that meets your every aspiration and ideal will be a fruitless one.”

    Of course it will. It will for everyone beyond the real tribalists….though, I expect even they are unhappy at some party political and policy issues. I’ve never sought a perfect party….merely one that better reflects my views. The problem with the three main parties IMO is that they are too driven by self and party-political interest.

    “I remain a Labour supporter not on an uncritical, my party right or wrong, basis but because they represent my many and varied bundle of beliefs and hopes better than any other. That’s why I’d like them to gain power and win elections. Pretty simple basic stuff really.”

    That’s why I have voted for the greens twice….not because I supported everything they stood for, but because they were a ‘better fit’. At the next GE, I will no doubt choose a party that best does the same.

    “By dint of that, we have ended up with just a few monolithic parties that attempt to be all things to all men and, in so doing, span too wide a breadth of opinion.”

    I totally agree with you there. Nothing to add to that.”

    Post 18:


    PaulCroft,

    Good point. Though, I would say that her comments were at best ill-advised, poorly chosen and likely to cause offence. A bit like Starkey’s. But she certainly didn’t deserve to be cyber-bullied.

    According to wikipedia:-

    “She opined that many people, once “the shock had faded”, thought “the United States had it coming”, and that “[w]orld bullies, even if their heart is in the right place, will in the end pay the price” (the so-called “Roosting Chickens argument”). In a November 2007 interview, she stated that the hostility these comments provoked had still not subsided, although she believed it had become a standard viewpoint that terrorism was associated with American foreign policy.

    Post 19:

    “@Paul Croft,

    “However if we are unable to accept others saying things that we vehemently disagree with then we are on the slippery slope to censorship.”

    I totally agree.

    Post 20:

    “Just seen who Spurs would have got….City at the Etihad! Don’t feel anywhere near as bad now! :P”

    Post 21:

    “@John Pilgrim,

    “I am not sure the exact figures, but have been wondering what of your 35 column inches of vacuous and witless insult and second-hand and pooly informed exchanges, on the current page alone, I might want to engage in, and decided absolutely none of it. Could you give it a break?”

    Excuse me? What did I say that you found so offensive?

  41. This is an exhaustive list of everything I have said. Please enlighten me, John, as to what you found so vacuous and offensive/insulting. If you have issues with another poster, can you please kindly keep me out of it???

    Thanks for allowing me to clear that up.

    Nighty night.

  42. @PaulCroft,

    That’s always the danger for Cameron….at first, I must admit, I got a bit excited with the thought of having a referendum on the EU….but when I thought about it, this referendum promise is bad for a number of reasons:-

    1) It’s unlikely to happen. The Tories would need a majority at the next GE, which is unlikely.
    2) I don’t believe DC will be able to renegotiate new terms. I never wanted to withdraw from the EU completely, just get some key powers back from the EU (i.e. with regards to the criminal justice system).

    It all seems a big mess to me. It may hit business confidence too in the meantime.

  43. CROSSBAT11
    I have similarly inherited my football club, but Charlton, now on the way up from L1 through the Chanpionship, and read their match reports for the pleasure of Chris Powell’s comments, diamond geezer if there ever was one, “A very skilled, left-footed defender, who could quite possibly be considered one of the nicest men in football, a true gent.” as one of his Southend supporters said. Might see you on the way down.
    Ambi and MitM
    It’s not the insults that matter in political debate – they can give great pleasure but not when they are delivered with the lack of thought and wit that you two seem to find acceptable. Do give it a rest. No offence meant, but are you connected by any chance, as in the similarly worded athletic supporter and “old man in the middle?

  44. If that’s “Ambivalance” -I’m a Labour supporter.

    Leave it out for gawd’s sake.

  45. @maninthemiddle – “I’m off to bed now, but if you think you are correct and that Mrs Beard said nothing offensive whatsoever then please explain why you think Mrs Beard has received such a backlash from her most recent appearance when no such backlash has occurred before after her appearances? I’ll read your response if you choose to make one in the morning.”

    My transcription of what Beard said is an accurate and true reflection of the relevant exchange, and you are completely wrong in claiming she accused anyone in the audience of myth making. She was polite, well informed, and restricted her comments entirely to the contents of a local study, with the exception of her last ‘exploitative labour’ comment off camera, which was, in fact, in support of the woman you said she so dismissed. You are so wrong, it’s humiliating.

    Why the response? I did try to educate you previously on the relatively new phenomena of anonymous sexualised cyber bullying, which has seen a number of high profile women inexplicably attacked in the most graphic and vicious terms for saying really quite uncontroversial things, and Beard’s bafflement at why she was subjected to such a torrent of abuse is shared completely by me.

    You are also incorrect in that Beard has not suffered such a reaction previously. Following her recent highly acclaimed TV series on Roman history, she received quite a bit of abuse, entirely for her appearance. Even the TV critic A.A. Gill was guilty of this when he made disparaging comments about her looks in a review.

    You have been sucked up into a mindless response to what was, by any reasonably standards a perfectly decent and polite intervention on QT (and was judged so by the live audience). Your memory of the event (if you do indeed have one) is false, and you have allowed yourself to look utterly foolish by taking the word of offensive online bloggers to be your guide.

    I know I shouldn’t have responded to you execrable posts, for which I apologize to Anthony and the other posters, but I sometimes find it difficult to vacate the ground to such malformed and ill judged views.

  46. Ambivalent Supporter – I found your account of how your attitudes were changed by your personal experience very moving and encouraging and am astounded that you are being attacked by John Pilgrim, who is normally one of my favourite contributors to this site. I think he must have been confused by the similarity of Ambi and Amber, and the unlikelihood of Amber becoming so angry and persistent. I think she was justified in this case. I am one of those who have for some time suspected a connection between MinM and Max of Kent.
    I hope you will not be hurt and upset by this incident, which has led me to interrupt my three years of lurking with only my second contribution.

  47. @John Pilgrim.

    “It’s not the insults that matter in political debate – they can give great pleasure but not when they are delivered with the lack of thought and wit that you two seem to find acceptable. Do give it a rest. No offence meant, but are you connected by any chance, as in the similarly worded athletic supporter and “old man in the middle?”

    I take it that means you didn’t find anything remotely incriminating. Thanks for clearing that up.

    @Devonian,

    “Ambivalent Supporter – I found your account of how your attitudes were changed by your personal experience very moving and encouraging and am astounded that you are being attacked by John Pilgrim, who is normally one of my favourite contributors to this site. I think he must have been confused by the similarity of Ambi and Amber, and the unlikelihood of Amber becoming so angry and persistent. I think she was justified in this case. I am one of those who have for some time suspected a connection between MinM and Max of Kent.
    I hope you will not be hurt and upset by this incident, which has led me to interrupt my three years of lurking with only my second contribution.”

    Thanks. I rest my case.

  48. @Colin,

    “If that’s “Ambivalance” -I’m a Labour supporter.”

    I didn’t say that. I said, and I quote,”‘I don’t dislike Labourites at all….most of my family are Labour voters, as well as one of my best friends! Just dislike people who are rude and aggressive. Most Labour voter/supporters are neither.” That was in response to MIM’s assertion that the red side on here are out to cause trouble/are tribal (and to John Pilgrim’s accusation that I was somehow involved).

  49. I think Anthony will be getting his naughty seat ready for a few people, looking at some of the above.

    Opinions are only opinions, often when there is no definitive answer. People get unecessarily intense about issues, most of which they cannot do anything about.

    As for migration affecting those already resident in any area, there have always been tensions and there always will be. I can remember my Gran looking through her window in a suburb of London commenting about the growing number of Asians living in her area. She was no racist, but was unsettled by the change. Now 40 years on since her passing, the local high street is dominated by businesses run by Asians and I would estimate that at least 30% of people living there are from non white foreign backgrounds.

    FWIW, I think we should embrace multiculturalism by actually loving the mixture of people from so many different backgrounds. London is a better place for having people from all over the world.

    Is the UK any different from France, US, Germany and other major western economies, in having large migrant populations ? The answer is no, as you cannot prevent people wanting to live somewhere else. Look at the millions of British people who live abroad.

    Mary beard was probably correct in what she said, but if people think differently then that is their opinion. In order for local authorities to be able to deal with migration pressures, perhaps the government should look at the census system to see if there is a better way of measuring local needs.

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