Looking at local newspaper feeds, twitter feeds of reporters on the ground and so on here is what I can make out so far…

WILTSHIRE and DYFED-POWYS have both declared and were both won by the Conservatives.

BEDFORDSHIRE has gone to a second round between the Conservatives and Labour, pretty much neck and neck and the moment. Ind, Lib Dem and British Freedom second preferences to be reallocated.

CLEVELAND has gone to a second round between the Conservatives and Labour. Green and Independent 2nd preferences to be reallocated.

DORSET is reported to have an independent in first place so far.

ESSEX has gone to a second round between the Conservatives and an Independent. The Conservatives have a lead of 10,000 or so votes, but there are lots to be redistributed, including Labour, a second independent and UKIP.

GWENT’s first round was won by an Independent, Ian Johnston, and has gone to a second round

KENT is still counting, but the former Independent chair of the police authority Ann Barnes is ahead on the first round and looks set to win

MERSEYSIDE should be ready to declare shortly, Labour have won easily on first preferences.

NORTH WALES has gone to a second round between Labour and an Independent

NORTHUMBRIA hasn’t quite declared yet, but has been easily won by Labour. They have declared now and Vera Baird has indeed won comfortably on the first round.

SOUTH YORKSHIRE has apparently been won by Labour on the first round, but no figures yet

SUFFOLK has gone to a second round with Labour and the Conservatives absolutely neck and neck, there are votes from UKIP and an Independent to be redistributed.

WEST MIDLANDS has gone to a second round, but Labour’s first round lead looks unassailable.

UPDATE: Labour have won Corby with a 22% lead, so the Populus(?) poll by Lord Ashcroft got the lead correct. It is a swing of around about 12.7%, so significantly better than the national polling position, which is currently showing a swing of around about 8.5%.


412 Responses to “PCC Update – the situation so far”

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  1. PAULCROFT

    As panto season approaches –

    “Oh, yes you are!” :-)

  2. MANINTHEMIDDLE

    “Looks like Devon and Cornwall are the UK’s answer to America’s Florida”

    “Is it likely that Ukip will beat the Libs by 8300 in Dev and Co

    They are exactly 8300 behind in the national vote and there is only Dev and Co left to announce first pref votes”
    _____

    LOL for a minute there I actually thought you were getting enthusiastic over the Police Commissioner elections.

  3. No wonder old Prezza was such a fan of FPTP; he’d have won today on the old system (24.8% vs 22.01% first preference) but was undone by AV! Fair play to him though, his presence boosted the turnout in Humberside to the dizzying heights of 19.1%, the second best level of voter participation in all the 41 contests!

    Latest vote share on the PCC elections with 40 of the 41 constituencies declared: –

    Lab: 1.6 million (33.3%)
    Con: 1.3 million (27%)
    Independent :1.1 million (22.4%)
    UKIP: 350,000 (7.2%)
    Lib Dem: 349,000 (7.2%)
    Others 2.8%

    I wonder what Steve Hilton thinks of his big idea now?

  4. As they say in panto land “these things are relative” and, relatively speaking, no I’m not.

    I had a great character for a panto called “Fairy Nuff” and, very amusingly, every time one of the cast replied by saying “fair enough” the fairy was thrown on stage and had to pick hereself up and say “Wot?”

    Unfortunately there was no plot and that was the only joke – but, to be fair, what a guddun!!

  5. GRAHAM.
    Thanks very much.

    I remember Sutton in 1972. I used to live in that Borough, in Wallington.

    In 1973 I think Labour did well in the GLC elections

  6. PAULCROFT

    “relatively speaking”

    Don’t weep! You shall go to the ball. :-)

    Your relatives will never recognise you in women’s clothing, and Ann might display your image in her garde-robe. :-)

  7. @MiTM

    You said “…Who do you usually vote for? And what constituency are you in (in terms of PCC constituency?)…”

    Not saying to either. When I talk about myself on this board I usually leave enough unsaid to keep me unidentifiable. But I assume RobS will be happy it at least narrows me down to England and Wales: I think he was convinced I was American at one point.

    @Howard

    You said “…Parochially, I had no idea what you were saying to Socal, never having heard of Twinkies…What is the relevance to your comment to Socal?

    It was a reference to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkie_defense

    Regards, Martyn

  8. (reposted due to unclosed tag)

    @MiTM

    You said “…Who do you usually vote for? And what constituency are you in (in terms of PCC constituency?)…”

    Not saying to either. When I talk about myself on this board I usually leave enough unsaid to keep me unidentifiable. But I assume RobS will be happy it at least narrows me down to England and Wales: I think he was convinced I was American at one point.

    @Howard

    You said “…Parochially, I had no idea what you were saying to Socal, never having heard of Twinkies…What is the relevance to your comment to Socal?…”

    It was a reference to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkie_defense

    Regards, Martyn

  9. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20346012

    BBC article very bad on typos

    1994-2010 – Deputy Labour leader
    1997-2010 – Deputy prime minister

    No he wasn’t Harriet took over both roles in 2007

    And also this little gem

    1997-2100 – Environment, transport and the regions secretary

    So he’s still going to be in politics in 88 years time???

  10. @MITM

    If ever there was an English region that values its independence, it would be Cornwall. I would be suprised if they didn’t vote for an Independent. The LDs have done well there of late, but I think their national drubbing will become complete here. Devon is different, but I still expect D and C to go Indie.

  11. @MITM

    I was going to make a joke that the count may be delayed by Scilly votes. But I won’t :)

  12. MinM

    First name terms with Ms Harman also eh?

    I is impressed.

    D’you knock about with all of them?

  13. Now we are past midnight, have D&C stopped counting, and start again tomorrow? Or will they continue through the night?

    They truly are the British version of Florida. Southern Peninsula, where everyone goes on holiday, but can’t run an election to save it’s life and takes days to get a result.

  14. Anyonr wanting a snappy ready-reference of who won where need look no further than erm… here:
    http://www.topofthecops.com

  15. MinM:

    I doubt anyone cares very much either way………….

  16. Maybe there is just too much happening in the South West. Like the granting of the UK’s first seaweed licence:
    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-20340197

  17. CHRISLANE1945,

    Labour did OK at the 1973 GLC elections when Reg Goodwin became the GLC leader – though the performance fell well short of the spectacular gains made in the 1971 London Borough elections when Labour gained Bexley and Harrow at a time when the latter was far more naturally Tory than is the case today!

  18. Unbelievably the BBC had it before ITV. Conservative Tony Hogg wins Devon and Cornwall.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20344090

    RGDSM

  19. Devon and Cornwall PCC

    First round result
    Anthony Hogg (Con) 55,257
    Brian Greenslade (Ind) 24,719

    Eliminated
    Nicky Williams (Lab) 24,196
    Brian Blake (Lib Dem) 23,948
    Robert Smith (UKIP) 16,433
    Ivan Jordan (Ind) 12,382
    William Morris (10,586)
    John Smith (10,171)
    Graham Calderwood (Ind) 8,667
    Tam Macpherson (Ind) 4,306
    Total votes: 196,987

    Rejected papers 6,339

    Turnout 15.15per cent

    Second round result

    Anthony Hogg 14,162
    Brian Greenslade 12,524
    Spoilt ballot papers 17,897

    Total votes

    Anthony Hogg 69,419
    Brian Greenslade 37,243

    http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/Tony-Hogg-named-Devon-Cornwall-Police-Crime/story-17319241-detail/story.html

    rgdsm

  20. @ Martyn

    So, the election officer made a mistake: None of the above won :-)

    Actually, he announced the wrong result. All the votes were spoilt…

    Anyway, I really don’t know if we got any more informed about the elections that is coming to us with the speed of… well… time….

  21. @Martyn

    18,000 spoilt ballots? It that a record?

    Also, looks like a collapse in the LD vote, overtaken by an Independent and Labour.

  22. @Laszlo

    Isn’t that like the speed of…um…speed? :-)

    rgdsm

  23. @Raf

    “…18,000 spoilt ballots? It that a record?…”

    No, it’s a rather large pile of paper. A record is a thin black plastic disk with a groove.

    Boom, boom…. :-)

    rgdsm

  24. So, Policeman Plod won in many districts, and this is good, because he knows what the whole thing is about. The problem is that all his knowledge, and I’m not joking, that could have been useful is pretty much useless as it is not necessary for his job. He has very little power but he also has very little to be accountable for. But now we cannot really blame the central government for any mishaps. Bad Policeman Plod didn’t manage to optimise the situation. Can we help him? (No, but it’s a rhetoric question, so…)

  25. @ Martyn

    Yes, they are equivalent :-).

    I think all the elected new people feel the touch of history on their shoulder, but by the time they turn around to see if it was history, it has… hush… gone…

  26. @ Martyn

    “A record is a thin black plastic disk with a groove.”

    No, they couldn’t express it in sounds. It’s re-cord – something to do with the fringes of the curtain after a while.

    I think this super-Thursday was a bit too much…

  27. I think the British public should be applauded. As I hoped on an earlier thread, independents did very well. Though the idea of voting for a public official seems good, political parties should stay well clear, and the public has agreed. I can’t remember an election when independents have done so well overall, and I go back quite a long way.

    Looking beyond party politics, I think that we are in the middle of a sea-change in British politics. Back in the 1950s, and later into the sixties and seventies, people mainly voted for Labour or Conservative in GEs, and Local elections were becoming increasingly party-political.

    Since then, turnout in all forms of elections has been falling, and we have seen all sorts of variations and gimmicks by both main parties to try to boost interest. The variations include reducing the voting age, allowing more postal votes, PR in some elections, etc etc. There has also been the rise of new parties such as SNP, Green, PC and UKIP.

    As an illustration, in 1955 Tories and Labour took 96% of a 77% turnout, whereas in 2010 it was 57% of a 65% turnout (and that was an improvement over the previous election, probably because of postal voting).

    Why is this all happening? I believe that it is because the two main parties (and the Libs) are all fighting for the so-called ‘middle-ground’. This leaves many voters feeling that none of the main parties represents their views. There are so many issues where there is a significant minority or even majority view which is simply not represented effectively by any of the big 2.5 parties (e.g. EU, death penalty, immigration etc etc). They all seem to have positions which are slight variations on the views of the ‘liberal elite’, and nearly all prominent politicians seem to come from a much narrower range of people than used to be the case 30 years ago.

    Let’s hope that the significant vote for independents in these PCC elections shakes the parties up.

  28. @ Pete B

    “Since then, turnout in all forms of elections has been falling, and we have seen all sorts of variations and gimmicks by both main parties to try to boost interest. The variations include reducing the voting age, allowing more postal votes, PR in some elections, etc etc. ”

    They also gave women voting rights, that was a real gimmick.

    “Let’s hope that the significant vote for independents in these PCC elections shakes the parties up.”

    It’s surely a joke? Did you watch the body language, the facial expressions?

    The only thing today was the narratives the Cons and Labs could put to the Corby by-elections. We are still waiting for the LibDem one, but it is perhaps a long wait.

  29. Can anyone find out any more details and confirm this astonishing news that I have been told…

    In North Norfok, Lib Dem Norman Lamb was considered to be in a very safe position (55.5% in 2010) but the Lib Dems came 4th in the PCC elections.

    What was the breakdown of the PCC vote in North Norfolk?

    If things are looking so bad for Norman Lamb then surely the Lib Dems are finished?

  30. Lazlo
    “It’s surely a joke? Did you watch the body language, the facial expressions?”

    No. I just read the results online. Are you saying that the party people looked shaken?

    “The only thing today was the narratives the Cons and Labs could put to the Corby by-elections.”

    The winner won with about 21% of the electorate. Proves my point. The main parties are slowly dying.

  31. Ken

    MIM………….I think you’re right, we really must somehow factor in the, ‘ Mensch ‘ effect…………….the electorate will feel fairly insulted to have been rejected by such a lovely lady, My view is that her looks and glam background got her there in the first place. Corby is Labour by culture, and now kicked in the teeth by a Tory, ‘celeb’ they should have seen it coming. :-)

    _______________________________________________

    Not entirely convinced by the “Mensch Effect”. Not that I’m saying it’s had no effect whatsoever, but it’s worth bearing in mind the following…

    1) Voters did not all flee from Mensch into the arms of Labour, whose gains were mostly at the expense of the Lib Dems

    2) Meanwhile, Tories seem to have rather suffered at the hands of UKIP. Now you might say that this was a protest against Mensch, but what would be the point? Mensch is not standing for election! One person particularly unaffected by votes for UKip is Mensch herself, and if you feel your party has been let down then surely you’d want to back them.

    3) A more plausible reason, is dissatisfaction with Tories over Europe and Immigration etc., and if you look at another by election sans the Mensch effect, Manchester Central, what do we see? Tories down seven percent, LDs down FIFTEEN… meanwhile UKip only FIVE votes behind the Tories. To put this into further context, Tories polled 754, BNP polled nearly 500.

  32. @The Sheep (from the previous thread)

    “Impressive that your law requires you to prove a negative.”

    Okay, this is so hilarious to me from just a pure geeking out on Constitutional Law and U.S. Legal History perspective. Because that’s the exact position that the royal British judge took in the famous mid 1700’s libel case (I think in New York) against newspaper publisher William Zenger. Zenger’s lawyer kept arguing that the plaintiff had to prove what he said was false. And the judge kept slapping him down (explaining firmly that British law didn’t recognize proving a negative…a concept that confounded and angered the judge) as the lawyer kept trying this argument. The judge then basically gave an instruction to the jury to convict. The jury, however, agreed with the lawyer and voted to acquit.

    It’s pretty much bedrock law (and has been for a very long time, centuries I think) that one of the core elements (I’m going to look up the restatement tonight after dinner….another 12 hour day and I haven’t really eaten…..to give you the basic elements for a libel claim) but a plaintiff has to prove that the statement was false. Right off the bat. And don’t get me started on anti-SLAPP statute we have out west.

    The fact that British law continues to veer the other way is kinda cool but also somewhat scary. Also, I read an article about arrests for offensive tweets. IFrightening and outrageous.

    “On the GM front (and I’m pro science so not anti-GM), I always think that the use of the word ‘civil’ in the UK ends up confusing people between the concept of civil unions and civil marriages. There is also a possibility that the lies put around by the church about this forcing the celebration by religious groups is having an impact. But I would still bet that if is was put to a vote the vote would be massively in favour.”

    I have a feeling that the vote would go in favor too. I don’t think it would line up among predictable lines though by constituency (some safe Tory constituencies would vote in favor, some safe Labour constituencies would vote against). It should never come to a vote. Of course, when it does, I’ll be prepared to fight (and lord knows I’ve emptied my bank account several times in order to donate to the cause). It doesn’t make me any less thrilled over the wins last week.

  33. @ Richard in Norway

    “May I be the first to offer my condolences on the regrettable and untimely demise of the twinkie, I understand that you and the whole country must be devastated, although the gay community in san fran might be glad that they can no longer be killed with impunity by twinkie crazed homophobes or was that a different twinkie”

    Well I thank you for your condolences (I heard about that today in passing, apparently Rush Limbaugh was blaming the President for it…what’s new?) but I don’t think I have ever had a twinkie actually. I certainly wouldn’t eat them now. I think I have had a ho-ho which I’ve confused for a twinkie because they’re made by the same company. I’m more sorry about any jobs that will be lost with any factory closings.

    And as for the latter comment, I don’t think anyone is worried.

    1. Dan White is long dead (killed himself a long time ago).

    2. The twinkie defense can’t be used anymore in court.

    3. That murder was entirely pre-meditated (the defense was a lie).

    Btw, it looks increasingly likely that Romney will finish with 47% of the popular vote (you Brits will love that dark irony).

  34. CrossBat11
    I notice a lack of anger from the FPTPers about Prescott’s loss – they warned us that the person who came first might not win and that it should only be one-man-one-vote! ;)

    Does anybody know where I can find the electorate numbers for each seat? BBC and Guardian only provides votes and turn-out % which isn’t exactly accurate.
    I’m trying to work out roughly what the seat counts would have been if each constituency was equal size – since one West Midlands is worth about 4.4 seats on average.

    So ‘Seat Totals’ are, before adjustment:
    Con 16,
    Lab 13,
    Other 11

    But after crude adjustment (using votes and turnout %):
    Lab 36
    Con 36
    Other 28

    Of course, if we did have multiple seats per constituency, they probably would’ve had smaller constituencies or used PR, which would’ve given us completely different results anyway.
    My adjustment was to show that you can’t just take ‘seat count’ at face value.

  35. @ Martyn

    “Not saying to either. When I talk about myself on this board I usually leave enough unsaid to keep me unidentifiable. But I assume RobS will be happy it at least narrows me down to England and Wales: I think he was convinced I was American at one point.”

    Yeah, I bet you guys can’t even guess what Congressional District, which Assembly District, and which State Senate District I vote in. But if you did out me (well Anthony knows my identity), you’d be extremely disappointed. But I like my anonymity.

    God forbid though I ever get nominated to a federal judgship and I get outed. I can see it now (20-25 years into the future…..being optimistic). I can just imagine the hostile questioning from Republican Senators about how I’ve created a possible international incident by making such lurid comments about your as-of-now future Prime Minister Jim Murphy.

  36. @Ken

    Loved your 0.02 post! Totally agree with your sentiments.

  37. @Tinged
    “My adjustment was to show that you can’t just take ‘seat count’ at face value.”

    You beat me to it. Counting the number of parliamentary seats in each PCC area would be one way of producing a slightly less meaningless tally than a raw seat count. Comparing the West Midlands with say Wiltshire on an equal footing is a bit meaningless. Although I wonder whether the turnout robs these results of virtually any meaning, whichever way you look at it.

  38. I think the electoral commission will conclude that these elections were anti-democratic, in that they were less democratic than the previous system.

    Why?

    Many factors, but the chief ones being the fact that the deposit was so high, there was no state budget for advertising ot mailing, that there was no referendum to establish whether these posts were wanted (like the mayors), that turnout was low which both favours the Tories as compulsive voters and as the introducers of the posts, and most of all because for very many abstaining was either a statement that they disapproved of the post (witness high numbers of spoiled papers) or that they didn’t have enough info about the candidates or the point of the position to make a decision.

    A lot of money spent on something the majority might not have wanted to give us a less democratic system.

    Should it be scrapped? Probably need a referendum in each region to coincide with the next general election.

  39. “Although I wonder whether the turnout robs these results of virtually any meaning, whichever way you look at it.”
    Only as much as low turn-out in general elections rob the seat results of meaning, usually.

    I don’t really like the idea of trying to come up with a way of determining who ‘won’ nationally in non-national elections anyway.
    People vote different in different elections so it’s a bit of an absurd task – but if you’re going to compare seat counts, you might as well do it right. ;)

  40. NickP,
    I disagree with the assertion that these were less democratic than the previous system – 100% of these seats were elected, unlike the previous system.

    Unless there was voter suppression, turn-out is a completely invalid concern in determining the democratic-level as voters had the opportunity to turn-out.

    The lack of information may have been a concern, but we had just as much, if not more, information about these candidates than about the members of the police authorities.

    It’s clutching as straws to call these elections undemocratic – there was no voter suppression, the method of electing the candidates was fairly legitimate – far more than if it’d been just FPTP – and more importantly these people were elected as opposed to the previous appointed people.

    We could argue that a council system, as opposed to an executive system, would have been more democratic – but elected is always better than appointed in the democratic measurement.

  41. 100% voter turnout isn’t the right comparator.

    It never happens .

    In UK :-

    2010 GE 65%
    2009 EP 35%
    2012 Corby BE 45%
    2012 Bristol Mayor 28%
    2012 Cardiff BE 25%
    2012 Man Cen. BE 18%
    2012 PCCs ? 15% to 20%

    PCC elections certainly low & it will be interesting to understand why in due course.

    But are the new PCCs any less “legitimate” than the MP for Manchester Central?

    It is not compulsory to vote in this country.

  42. It’s anti-democratic for the simple reason that the majority didn’t want these posts in the first place and therefore didn’t vote for them.

    Now I can’t prove that, but I’d be interested to see some polling…

  43. Tinged

    I agree with your response to NickP-and particularly with your last sentence.

    Elected means you can vote them out next time.

    Selected can mean all sorts of things,

  44. I find it fascinating that so many independents won the police commissioner elections. I think it showed that people have no interest in watching these positions become politicized. IMHO, it’s far better to have officials who are appointed and responsible to elected officials. But with these new elections in place, voters have responded by ignoring political party candidates. It’s really surprising too because I’d think it’d be a lot harder for an independent to win an election in a Parliamentary system where voters are used to voting for party.

    @ Amber Star

    http://injury.findlaw.com/torts-and-personal-injuries/elements-of-libel-and-slander.html

    This is from the Second Restatement of Torts. It shows you what is basically the law in regards to defamation. It’s pretty uniform nationwide. And yes, if you are a plaintiff in a case, the burden lies on you to prove the elements of your case. In the case of a libel suit, one of those elements is that the statement is false. No one presumes guilt or innocence, it’s just that in a civil case, the plaintiff has to prove their case.

    It’s outrageous and a sign of tyranny that your government arrests people for offensive tweets. I read an article about it today and found it shocking. If a tweet is somehow defamatory, it wouldn’t be up to the government to arrest someone for it anyway as there is no longer such a thing as criminal defamation.

    Btw, thought I’d give you an election update. Brian Bilbray (R-CA) admitted the obvious today and conceded defeat today in the CA-52 race. He’s an odious guy so it was good to see him lose reelection (for a second time). That brings the number of Dems in the CA Delegation to 38. Puts us still short of the 41 Labour MPs that Scotland has (and was my hope) but it is a very good result and I think will be improved upon in the future (because of this new fakakta top two system we had, a heavily Democratic Congressional seat, CA-31, had the option of two Republican candidates for Congress). The only truly competitive race we lost (kinda sad, our candidate, Jose Hernandez, was an Astronaut who ran a good race) was CA-10 and the incumbent, Jeff Denham, there was a seasoned political pro. We also lost CA-21 to the GOP. I think we would have won that seat if not for the health problems within the family of a popular Kern County Supervisor, Michael Rubio, which forced him to abandon plans to run. I don’t know if we’ll ever get CA-21 back or gain CA-10 (if not this year, when?). I do think we’ll have a good shot to get CA-31 in 2014 or 1016. But the goal to match Labour’s 41 in Scotland should still be our goal.

    Btw, the President’s lead has continued to expand. He’s now reached 60% in CA for the second time and his lead is now 2.6 million votes statewide (don’t know if it will reach 3, there are 1.7 million ballots left to count but the SOS doesn’t always update her website as quickly as counties have updated their results). The newest results (a gain of 200k votes to the President’s lead) haven’t been factored into the national popular vote so the lead continues to grow. I’m very glad this wasn’t a close election becausae had it been, we would have been tied up in the courts for weeks, if not months, as the GOP tried to prevent vote counting (apparently, several hundred thousand provisional ballots in Ohio are only now about to get counted).

  45. I think Ken and TOH are fooling themselves about the lack of signifance of the Corby result and I understand their reasons; but the real significance is not the possibly temporary swing from Con to Lab but the almost certainly permanent swing from Ld in the same direction.

    If that happens nationwide the Tories would need a massive rise in their 2010 to get even close to a majority. I think that is a very inlikely outcome and, I believe, so do most dispassionate observers.

  46. “It’s anti-democratic for the simple reason that the majority didn’t want these posts in the first place and therefore didn’t vote for them.”
    So is any other vote on less than 50% turn-out invalid now?
    Would you apply that rule to strike ballots? Or elected MPs? How about local elections? etc

    While it would have been democratic to ask, via referendum, whether people wanted the system – it’s just as democratic as the police authority system which also was implemented without referendum.

    You can’t have your cake and eat it – either a majority of MPs voting for something is legitimate and democratic or it’s not.
    So if we’re going by ‘a majority didn’t want it’, then no government since at least 1885 has been democratic – since no party has had a majority of votes of the electorate.

    Personally I would question the level of democracy of the parliamentary and prime ministerial system – but that’s a different matter altogether – both police authorities and PCCs were elected without majority (of the electorate) consent.

  47. MiM

    @”They truly are the British version of Florida.”

    Steady on!

    It’s a different pace of life down there -and none the worse for it.

    Have to stop for croust & bit chat :-)

  48. “both police authorities and PCCs were elected without majority (of the electorate) consent.”
    Should read … “were CREATED without”..

  49. TF:

    Both points of view are compatible as we don’t have a democratic system which ensures a majority of the population verdict. Because of that fewer and fewer people bother to vote and it gets worse.

    Thatcer’s poll tax was a clssic example where a pm supported by probably a small majority inside her own party which itself was elected with around a third, at most, of the electorate, pushed through a deeply unpopular measure.

  50. PAULCROFT
    Excluding direct democracy with mandatory voting, we’ll never have a system which ensures majority verdict.

    And while I’d love to see direct democracy, at the moment we don’t have the resources (technical or fiscal) to implement it.
    So we’ll have to settle for representative democracy – which I agree could be more democratic (we could implement PR and have an elected executive), but the concerns about turn-out apply to any non-mandatory system.

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