Tonight’s YouGov poll has topline figures of CON 40%, LAB 38%, LDEM 10% – full tabs here. This certainly suggests that the five point Labour lead yesterday was indeed an outlier, and that the underlying picture remains the same old neck-and-neck position between Labour and Conservatives.


372 Responses to “YouGov/Sun – CON 40%, LAB 38%, LDEM 10%”

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  1. LEFTY

    @”may I point you in the direction of your own party’s pronouncements”

    You may :-)

    @”(really rather meagre) deficit”

    Don’t think they were-add them up & see what proportion of total debt they represented.

    @”As I say, you start with your political aims, then bolt on the economic policy to suit. If your aim is to drive down the tole of Govt, then everything else will be subordinated to that aim.”

    Now you are lapsing into uncharacteristic partisanity.

    Arguing that a VAT reduction is best use of £12bn at that particular time, is not “driving down the role of government”.

    It has nothing to do with the role of government-it is a difference of opinion on the effect of a £12bn tax reduction.

  2. Lefty – I used to have the settings so that one link went into pre-moderation, so lots of people got into the habit of “breaking” their links.

    Since then I relaxed security and let through comments with one link, but old habits die hard

  3. ROB SHEFFIELD

    Bloomberg reports the results of a survey of analysts , it carried out jan 20 to Feb 9.

    Reasons given for UK Gilt yields being at record lows :-

    “The Bank of England’s quantitative-easing program, which has so far purchased a quarter of outstanding gilts, was identified as the single biggest cause by a third of 27 economists polled”

    “Just over a quarter said investors fleeing other European bonds were driving U.K. rates lower,”

    “22 percent said Osborne’s plan was the main reason. ”

    Don’t know if this qualifies as Voodoo Polling :-)

  4. @FrankG
    “However I would still totally agree your suggestion seems reasonable, PROVIDED of course the govt immediately REPAYS all my pension contributions”

    We make all kinds of payments for different things and never make any claims. Does that entitle us to our money back? I have always paid my NI and taxes and never claimed any unemployment benefit, so can I ask for my money back? I don’t believe in wars, so can I have my taxes back that go towards defence?

    We are supposed to be all in this together, so everyone should make sacrifices including better off pensioners.

  5. FRANK G.
    Good Evening. Your post:
    Some time ago you gave me good advice about the fact I should not bear a grudge against the Coalition Government in the 1930’s who took my mother’s furniture away when she was a tiny girl- as her dad, an irish immigrant in cardiff was injured in the Great War, and could not always get work when waiting at the dock gate, with only one foot.

    So I was disturbed by the bitter tone in which you write tonight.

    I also note that no pollster here, right, [Lib] dem or left wing have commented at all about the fact that 200 families in a part of Boscombe have not enough food for this school half term.

    Wider macro issues are easier matters on which to write.

    The best of times and the worst of times.

  6. @Chrislane1945

    Thanks for your post. Yes it was a sharp reply, because too often we hear from some quarters about the ‘poor and needy’, how we should all help etc etc. In this I am in full agreement , am willing to do my bit and to make a fair contribution.

    However some on here seem to regard anyone who worked hard and made sure they saved enough for their retirement as mere fat sheep to be fleeced to provide not for those that need, but those that can’t be bothered to work or even try.

    Occasionally they need reminding that it is those that do work and who do plan for the future that provide the vast majority of the funds on which the govt relies to pay benefits to the needy.

    However I will take the advice I gave you at that time and move on to a more appropriate polling topic. It is after all what I hope to get from this site.

  7. @Statgeek:

    Yesterday the Labour group on Glasgow City Council appeared to be able to muster 38 of 78 votes (plus the casting vote in case of a tie). The 40 votes for the budget included a councillor suspended from the Labour group and an independent. So right now Glasgow is teetering on the edge of NOC territory

    Wikipedia has the stats from the 2007 election all on one page (“Glasgow City Council election, 2007”). Looking at those it would be a brave prognosticator who made many predictions about the results this May. And Amber may correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m not at all certain that Labour have even announced how many candidates they’ll run. And we’ll also need to wait and see what former Labour councillors like Millar, Dornan and Morrison do.

    So NOC is about as inevitable as anything can be. Apart from that, I would guess that there will be two fewer Tory councillors in Glasgow than pandas in Edinburgh – it would only have taken a handful of transfers or first preferences in 2007 to achieve that – and maybe more Greens than Lib Dems.

  8. @LizH

    “We make all kinds of payments for different things and never make any claims. Does that entitle us to our money back? ”

    There is one huge difference between ‘having money deducted against an eventuality and not needing to call on it’ and ‘having money deducted against and when you do need to call on it, finding it is now being denied. If you cannot see the difference then there seems little point in us continuing any dialogue on this matter.

    So back to polling topics as far as I am concerned.

  9. @Crossbat,

    I think we’re at one. There is a perfectly cogent argument to be made about the levels of government spending, the value of the is bought with that spending and the moral case for protecting spending levels in order that the good work that goes on is not undermined.

    That is the natural battleground of the left, and it is the area where I have the most sympathy with you. After all, I am a government employee, the son of government employees and have no wealth to speak of.

    I have always said I am a sort of liberal conservative, and generally think of myself as centre-right rather than right.

    In general, I support the general position of the UK as a mixed-economy nation with much higher taxation and social provision than the USA, but significantly lower than continental Europe. I think the current platform of the Republican party is illiterate, dogmatic lunacy.

    I do think we owe it to the people from whom we take the taxes to look closely, and regularly, at the way we spend the money and take only that which we truly need. After all, it’s not as if they couldn’t have used that money in all sorts of useful and benevolent ways themselves. My experience of the public sector is that it will always seek to solve problems through the expansion of budgets rather than through improved efficiency. I think it is necessary for governments to be instinctive penny-pinchers, to avoid the public sector pilfering the entire country’s wealth through wave after wave of increased “need”.

    That entire debate, about how much we tax, who we tax it from and where we spend it, is something I think I can discuss quite amicably, and with a lot of common ground, with most of the political spectrum.

    But I absolutely do not believe that public spending is what generates wealth. Wellbeing, yes. Wealth, no.

  10. @FrankG
    “There is one huge difference between ‘having money deducted against an eventuality and not needing to call on it’ and ‘having money deducted against and when you do need to call on it, finding it is now being denied.”

    Some of those being denied disability payments/benefits have also paid into the system.

  11. @LizH

    Being denied or being means tested to ensure that they qualify and need it. A huge difference!

    End of discussion with you on this topic as far as I am concerned, we will clearly not agree.

  12. What’s that sound?

    Ah yes – it is Frank’s mother and grandmother turning in their graves as they read of his hatred towards those who are disabled or lack education, in fact all those less fortunate than himself.

  13. I’ve thought for a long time that the whole “National Insurance” concept is a fraud that lost any true legitimacy years ago.

    NI is just tax.

    However, Frank has being paying it since long before it lost that legitimacy. Back in the day, it was regarded as a payment you made to receive something in return.

  14. FRANK G.
    Before I sign out for the night, with half term hols now here, deo gratias,

    Thanks for your last post as well!

    You will know that the original Labour Party movement did not envisage men not working. Hardie was scathing about idleness- of the rich and the poor.

    But there are genuine signs of real distress among the ‘deserving’ hard working poor people in England at this time.

  15. @FrankG
    I know we wont agree but one last example. What about public servants who when they took their job on was promised a certain amount of pension and are now being told they have to not only pay more but will receive less because they have to work longer before they receive it?

    My point is that everyone is being asked to make sacrifices so that the deficit can be reduced. Why can’t those who are able including well off pensioner’s contribute towards the reduction of the deficit?

  16. @Ianathonyjames

    Firstly my mother is still very much alive, although she is 92 years old and I must admit very poorly at the moment. She would have agreed with every word I said – my parents always taught me that before expecting others to help me, I should always first try to help myself.

    Secondly I have no ‘hatred’ towards the disabled or those lacking education. So please do not try to insinuate that I have such a ‘hatred’, even in jest. I left school aged 16, so I do not agree that a lack of education necessarily means being disadvantaged, if you are prepared to work hard. As for disabled, I have full sympathy for them and support efforts to enable them to have a full life, provided they try their best to help themselves. Many disabled have so much pride in themselves, that to do less than their best is just not acceptable to themselves. That is the attitude in which I believe. Clearly some with the ‘red’ background do not.

    However I seem to have missed the polling point you were making!

    It is those who could do better if the actually tried, that I find it difficulty in accepting. As for being more ‘fortunate than others’ –

  17. @LizH,

    I am one of those public sector workers. I suppose the difference to FrankG’s case is that the public sector workers are likely to keep their already-accrued benefits intact, and those who have already retired will see no changes at all.

    A more accurate comparison to the state pension would be if it was removed only from those yet to retire, and only at a pro-rata level depending on how many years they’d paid towards it.

  18. @chrislane1945

    “You will know that the original Labour Party movement did not envisage men not working. Hardie was scathing about idleness- of the rich and the poor.”

    Yes, my grandmother (deceased now of course) was a very vocal Labour activist in those days in Welwyn Garden City. Her Co-op Society number was an incredible 64. Yes, she certainly believed in hard work to achieve things, not waiting for it to be handed out .

  19. IMO some of the comments directed at Frank this evening are little short of being disgusting and are not in the spirit of this site..

  20. Neil A/Crossbat

    THAT’s the sort of discussion that makes this place the place that it is. (And Colin – yes, my final comment early did lapse into partisanship – as did your partial rebuttal of it ;) – Truce?)

    Back to Neil and Crossbat. It was precisely the lack of a grown up debate at the last Election on what role we wanted the State to have that I found so profoundly depressing. This was probably the most important turning point election of my lifetime, but the debate was infantile. Politically, the Tories just about won it, but they were economical with the truth – they painted their approach as TIN-Economic-A whereas that was always mendacious. There WAS an alternative, but it couldn’t fit the political agenda for the TORIES. Labour were simply incompetent and incoherent at pushing the case for the alternative. Both sides did a dis-service to what the country ought to have at such a pivotal moment.

    Neil A. You’d expect that I’d take issue with your comment on the inefficacy of public spending. Aside from the legion examples of fundamental developments of the modern world directly due to Govt spending (from computers to velcro) and the powerful mega-companies underpinned by Govt spending (from Airbus to General Motors), you simply cannot separate the “well-being” aspect from the wealth generation process.

    A simple example. Fifteen years ago, The area around the station in my home town of Sheffield resembled a bomb-site. The walk from the station to what passed for the City Centre was one of unremitting gloom. Public spending in the last decade has transformed the area. The station forecourt has won design awards. There is a well-planned, well-laid out route for visitors through that forecourt and along a refurbished pedestrian way (where used to be junkies and prostitutes), through a wonderful gallery and winter gardens to the set-piece public square in the City Centre.

    All of that development has been underpinned by public spending. The result has been a resurgence of civic pride. People feel proud to bring visitors to Sheffield. New hi-tech businesses, new shop chains and new hotels (private sector) have sprung up along the refurbished half mile. Sheffield still has economic problems, but they are a pin-prick compared to what we experienced in the last 3 recession.

    The public investment in the infrastructure of one of the country’s eyesores has been crucial in this generation-long turn-round. A classic case of public investment setting the ground for private development.

  21. @Lizh

    “I know we wont agree but one last example. What about public servants who when they took their job on was promised a certain amount of pension and are now being told they have to not only pay more but will receive less because they have to work longer before they receive it?”

    I was a public servant all my working life! My work related pension is dictated by the govt of the day as to what the nation can afford. Well thanks to the economic circumstances today, that pension is probably less than it should have been. I have had to accept that and will use any vote to ‘reward’ the party I consider primarily to blame for any economic miss-management.

    You were proposing something entirely different. You were suggesting that a person should be denied a pension to which they had contributed because they had planned ahead financially for their old age, whilst allowing the same pension to a person who had not bothered to plan ahead. That is rewarding idleness and lack of forward thinking, whilst penalising hard work and forward planning. That is stupid and grossly unfair.

    If you feel that the old age pension is no longer an contributary entitlement, but is now some form of means tested welfare grant, then that is changing the whole concept for which I would then have been duped into contributing for 49 years. In my opinion would be the equivalent to fraud. I know that some people claimed the Lab govt extracted elements of some private pension funds in the past, but I had not realised that some people’s old age pensions were now being eyed up. No wonder Con do better as people grow older and particularly well in the over 65’s. (my polling point :-) )

    As for the comment of ‘everybody making sacrifices’ , both my old age pension and work related pension are taxed already. If you want more then why not raise the tax levels for everyone, or is that not a vote winner, whereas appealing to some people’s envy may well be.

  22. The biggest problem with the public sector is not central.government, whrte everything is visible, but local government where silence is golden.

    A certain South London council is hiving of it’s libraries and.leisure services en masse to a leisure services group for a period of 15 years. Thos leisure services group intends to save money by slashing several tiers of management (long overdue), but only in return for very generous severence and redundancy payouts. As for.the lower end workers, having their already.low wages slashed and conditions worsened. 6/7 day weeks, till 10pm. No generous, or any redundancy packahes for them.

    Anyway, there was meant to be public consultation on the matter, even though the matter had already been decided and the contracts signed. Yhe council advertised the wrong day for the consultation meeting, and bamned staff from publicising the correct date. The contract is meant to come into force in less than.a few weeks.

    The council leader is an alcoholic (very.well.known) and earns a six figure sum. Other executives have expenses claims that would.make your eyes water. Some even have businesses that have won local government.contracts. Yet it’s all confidential. All secret. All under lock and key

    And we call this democracy!

    Anthony – if you.get.to..read this; how about yougov asking questions on openness in local government? Expenses, fully independently audited accounts, open meetings etc.

    P.s. It’s a veru safe Labour council, and the Cons are appalled at what is going on.

  23. @ Raf

    “Anyway, there was meant to be public consultation on the matter, even though the matter had already been decided and the contracts signed. Yhe council advertised the wrong day for the consultation meeting, and bamned staff from publicising the correct date. The contract is meant to come into force in less than.a few weeks.”

    That’s bizarre.

  24. @ Lefty Lampton

    “A simple example. Fifteen years ago, The area around the station in my home town of Sheffield resembled a bomb-site. The walk from the station to what passed for the City Centre was one of unremitting gloom. Public spending in the last decade has transformed the area. The station forecourt has won design awards. There is a well-planned, well-laid out route for visitors through that forecourt and along a refurbished pedestrian way (where used to be junkies and prostitutes), through a wonderful gallery and winter gardens to the set-piece public square in the City Centre.

    All of that development has been underpinned by public spending. The result has been a resurgence of civic pride. People feel proud to bring visitors to Sheffield. New hi-tech businesses, new shop chains and new hotels (private sector) have sprung up along the refurbished half mile. Sheffield still has economic problems, but they are a pin-prick compared to what we experienced in the last 3 recession.”

    I really like and greatly appreciate your example. Urban Planning is one of those things that American leftwingers are obsessed with (along with things like criminal procedure). You see the vital importance of government money in producing economic growth by creating new business opportunities and new jobs and you demonstrate how this occurs. I’m glad that Sheffield’s redevelopment was so effective and created a positive benefit for the community.

    I’ve seen this sort of thing happen repeatedly.

  25. @SoCalLiberal

    There is a long established programme in the US (I think called the Main Street program) that tries to address this. Oddly for such an interventionist, big state concept it had all party support. I talked to some people from the Louisiana coast whose town had been rescued, in part, after Katerina by this program.

  26. @Neil A

    “I think we’re at one. There is a perfectly cogent argument to be made about the levels of government spending, the value of the is bought with that spending and the moral case for protecting spending levels in order that the good work that goes on is not undermined.”

    I agree. Although we obviously have our political differences, I’ve always detected a basic humanity in what you have to say and a rigorous intellect too. Just a shame your a Spurs fan!

    @Lefty Lampton

    Like SocalLiberal, I thought that the example you used about the enormous social benefit accruing from the recent public spending in Sheffield city centre is an excellent one, especially the point you go on to make about how it created a virtuous circle that attracted private investment in its wake. Similar things have occurred in Birmingham over the last 15 years or so and the regeneration of some of our great cities is another one of those largely unsung achievements of the last Labour Government in my view.

    If Government’s don’t facilitate these sorts of social advances and civic improvements, what are they for at the end of the day?

    I’m off now to try and find a pitch that is sufficiently unfrozen to allow a football match to take place. I may have to head to North!

  27. “Your” should obviously be “you’re” in my previous post, just in case the grammar and syntax police come after me!!

  28. LEFTY

    @”Truce?)”

    Of course. :-)

  29. Good morning all.

    I previously described the opposition’s approach to framing it’s response to the Government’s benefit changes as “inept”, in terms of its inability to move the focus away from the Government’s chosen battlefield of the £26k benefit cap.

    So it’s welcome that the opposition seems to be getting its act together at last. On this morning’s news, we hear the news that 200,000 families working between 16 and less than 24 hours a week face withdrawal of tax credits because of new restrictions on eligibility. People probably desparate for cash and who want to work but who may well now be better off if they don’t.

  30. Grammatical pedants should ignore the second ‘ in the first line and read on!

  31. FRANKG

    I very much appreciated your posts.

    I share your thoughts , but could not have expressed them so well.

  32. In the latest in our exclusive and acclaimed look at the proposed boundary changes – we focus on Lincolnshire and the East Midlands. Follow the link:
    http://www.allthatsleft.co.uk/2012/02/east-midlands-boundary-changes-part-4-lincolnshire/

  33. COLIN and FRANK G.

    Good Morning from a very sunny beach in Bournemouth.

    I would offer a caveat on what seems to be a world view of self help- and I do believe in self help- a son of auto didacts myself.

    Many people need a ‘servant state’ which will support them in times of infancy, child hood, young adulthood, unemployment, accidents at work, sickness and bad luck.

    At the same time the ethics of hard work, duty, fidelity, perseverance, being good neighbours and regular giving to society need to be cultivated or ‘nudged’ to use a new word.

    It surely is immoral, and if there is a sheep and goats judgement (Matthew 25) there will be an account made to God, that children in Bournemouth are going to school hungy. It is not enough, I think, for us to merely say parents must take the blame.

  34. @ Colin

    “FRANKG

    I very much appreciated your posts.

    I share your thoughts , but could not have expressed them so well. ”

    I think I actually started the debate yesterday, by saying that perhaps pension entitlements should be looked at. This was purely based on the fact that we have a huge debt problem (£1.5 trillion by 2016) and that this is unlikely to be tackled within the next 20/30 years.

    The rise in pension age is being connected to life expectancy and number of people taking pensions. Whilst this is true, the underlying problem is that the UK government spends more money than it earns. We therefore need to think about how we can fairly deal with the current deficit, as well as chip away at the debt. The Lib Dems to their credit have raised the issue of higher rate tax relief on pensions and I would not be surprised if current pension entitlements were also subject to review. We cannot expect future generations to take on an unfair burden, with them working longer (perhaps into their 70’s) and then to receive less pension in real terms. It is just about fairness in the system between all generations and I am not expert enough to make a judgement. If people have paid in for over 40 years during their working lifes, then they are entitled to get back some of what they paid in. If this is to the detriment of current working generations, then I suppose it is not anyones fault, except for governments of all colours who have left an underfunded system.

  35. R HUCKLE

    Thanks.

    I was expressing sympathy with a number of views aired by FrankG-not just pensions.

    All governments are having to examine their spend committments now-particularly those who have in the past financed them with debt.

    It obviously comes hard when confronted with the lack of someone to perpetuate your deficit financing-and you have to understand that what was an “entitlement” , was only such whilst someone external was funding it.

    Increased longevity will either increase the length of working life , or life in retirement.

    Countries have to decide which is sustainable.

  36. CHRISLANE 1945

    “Self help” ( I prefer-personal responsibility ) does not preclude “State help”.
    Indeed the presence of the former justifies the latter.

    There will always be some who need external help-firstly to enable/facilitate self help-& if that is impossible, then permanent support.

    By the State & by Society

    The State needs to decide what level that “minimum support” should be pitched at & how it is to be paid for.

    Why are those people in Bournemouth going hungry?

    What are their circumstances?

  37. @RAY NORTH

    Cheers for the link. Interesting stuff.

    @ALL

    How set in stone are these proposed changes? Likelihood of rejection?

  38. @ Alec

    Proposals for wealthier savers to be stripped of higher-rate tax relief on pensions have been put forward by Danny Alexander, the Treasury chief secretary, in comments likely to be seen as the latest Liberal Democrat attempt to put distance between them and their Tory coalition partners.

    Reducing tax relief from 40% to 20% would save more than £7bn and make the system fairer, according to Alexander, whose party insists that the better-off are benefiting disproportionately from the tax break.
    —————————————-
    The LibDems have been ‘listening’ to your campaign!

    Next up – increase taxes on the pensions of those who benefitted from tax breaks in the past?
    8-)

  39. @ RAF

    The Sun having 5 senior staff arrested is bad news for Murdoch. If bribing public officials is found to be part of the Sun’s ‘culture’ then the US parent company will be in big trouble.

    Murdoch is apparently on his way… there is a possibilty that he might shut it down. Then we won’t get daily polls anymore. :-(

  40. @Amber

    I think we need to tread carefully. No-one has been charged yet as far as we know. And, in any event NI and News Corp are very different companies (even though NI is a subsidiary).

  41. @Colin;

    It’s always so pleasant to see someone deliberately misinterpret what you’ve said. I do so enjoy it.

    For the record, what I’ve said is not calling the extra money worthless or illusory; it’s very much neither. It simply has less of an impact. Let me put it in much simpler terms. Who do you think will notice the effect of having their income doubled more, in terms of quality of life? Someone on £10,000, or someone on £1,000,000? The same 2x increase in money for both people does not lead to a 2x increase in terms of utility.

    This is not to say that you can tax the rich indiscriminately, or even that high taxes in general are necessarily better. It makes no statements upon what the general level of taxation should be, merely how they should be collected. All it says is that if you want to be fair to everyone in society, the richer can withstand higher tax as a proportion than the poor.

  42. There is a Princeton paper on declining marginal utility here; http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~jgreene/GreeneWJH/Greene-Baron-JBDM-01.pdf

  43. TOP HAT

    @”It simply has less of an impact.- Let me put it in much simpler terms”

    Please don’t-I think I can just about follow the argument that the value of the marginal £1 to a poorer person is greater than to a wealthier person.

  44. All this talk about pensions may be irrelevant anyway !

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2099714/Meet-preppers-Up-3-MILLION-people-preparing-end-world-know-it.html

    I have already ordered a shelter and have a few cases of Spam and beans. Is this why tinned food has gone up in price ? A tin of corned beef was about a £1 a year ago and is now about £2. Is everyone else stocking up with tins ?

    PS. I am joking by the way.

  45. @AmberStar

    Clegg’s call for a wealth tax or Alexander’s for ending higher rate pension relief would be far more significant if this was a minority Conservative administration, over which they had real leverage. But in present circumstances, are they be prepared to bring the coalition down over either? I very much doubt it, as will Osborne or Cameron, so neither is likely to see the light of day in any substantive form.

  46. COLIN.
    All over the country churches are organising food banks.

    Here in my town, it is lack of work, low wages, high rent, reduced hours for adults. High food prices, high fuel and transport prices

    Thus innocent children are going hungry.

    In addition, of course, are the effects of alcohol and other drugs, and also of course family splits. The ‘liberal’ society has encouraged this bad behaviour of course

  47. @AmberStar

    You said “…there is a possibilty that he might shut it down. Then we won’t get daily polls anymore…”

    NOOOOOOOOOOO! I’ll have to get a life and talk about normal things! THIS WILL NOT DO!

    I’m off to Docklands to antipicket the Sun. I shall print signs that say “Fairness No! Sun Yes!”, “Keep Bullies Employed”, “The Working Class Hasn’t Been Patronised Enough Yet”, “More T*ts I Can’t Afford Internet”, “Not All Murder Victims Had Their Phones Bugged”, and – inevitably – “Go On My Sun”. If anybody else wants to join me in my lonely vigil in the freezing cold defending this Best of British institution against justice, the rule of law, and sanity, please join me. Allons-y, citoyens! Let’s keep Rupert Murdoch pocket-deep in governments! FORWARD WITH BRITAIN!

    Regards, Martyn

  48. @ The Sheep

    “There is a long established programme in the US (I think called the Main Street program) that tries to address this. Oddly for such an interventionist, big state concept it had all party support. I talked to some people from the Louisiana coast whose town had been rescued, in part, after Katerina by this program.”

    I remember reading about a formerly dead Indiana town that had been completely rebuilt and rejuvenated by stimulus funds yet no one credited the stimulus and everyone cursed the federal government, includling those who were direct beneficiaries. Not all people are like that that though.

    If not for the billions invested in building the Red Line Subway, I can think of a lot of LA neighborhoods that would not have come back in the past decade and seen such tremendous growth and rejuvenation. Hollywood is the prime example of this. Now actual real live tourists go there and aren’t warned by locals to stay out and far away.

  49. SoCalLiberal

    I presume the previous visitors were real dead tourists?

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