Full results for the Sunday Times/YouGov poll are now up here. As you’d might expect, given it’s silly season and it’s the only story in the news, the focus is again on the riots.

On the regular leadership trackers there is little change – David Cameron’s job approval stands at minus 12 (from minus 14 last week, and typical of late), Ed Miliband’s is minus 18 (from minus 22, still holding onto the increase he got from hackgate), Nick Clegg’s is minus 42.

As in the Channel 4 poll yesterday the primary causes of the riots are seen as criminality, gang culture and bad parenting (all named by 61% of people when asked to pick the main causes, and the top three when asked to pick the ONE main cause). That is followed, a long way behind, by social deprivation (23%) and unemployment (18%). Very few people though that the government’s cuts (10%) or poor policing (11%) were amongst the main causes.

45% think Cameron responded well to the riots (52% badly), 44% thought Boris responded well (45% badly). These are significantly up on similar questions YouGov asked for the Sun when the riots were still ongoing, which had 28% saying Cameron was doing well and only 24% for Boris – people are presumably viewing their reactions a lot more positively now things have quietened down. In contrast Theresa May is still seen as having reacted badly to the riots (31% well, 53% badly). For the opposition, 40% thought Miliband did well (40% badly) and Harriet Harman 26% well, 44% badly.

66% think the police responded well to the riots, with 31% saying badly – again this is significantly up on YouGov’s poll for the Sun in the week when the number thinked they’d handled it well was 52%. Asked how much confidence they have in the police to protect people and property from rioters 53% of people have some or a lot of confidence, 37% do not have a lot of confidence, 9% have none at all.

On the police cuts 56% of people think they should be cancelled, even if this means bigger cuts elsewhere. 23% of people think they should go ahead. Amongst the COnservative party’s own supporters 47% think the police cuts should be cancelled.

Finally there were some questions on Cameron’s “broken society”. YouGov re-asked a question from back in 2009 about whether people though Britain was a broken society, in regard of the area people themselves lived in, and in relation to the country as a whole. 37% think it is true in relation to the area they live (which is significantly down from 2009 when YouGov originally asked the question) with people most likely to agree in London. 74% think society is broken in Britain as a whole, virtually unchanged from 2009. Comparing ourselves to other European countries, 38% of people think British society is more broken than in other countries, 13% that British society is stronger and more stable and 39% that they are much the same.

There is very little confidence in the government’s policies solving the problems of “broken Britain” – only 22% think the government’s education policies will improve or mend society, 27% their welfare policies, 26% their law and order polices and 22% their economic policies. In every case a larger proportion of respondents think the government’s policies will make the problems in British society worse.


266 Responses to “YouGov/Sunday Times on the riots”

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  1. i think it is disingenuous and deceitful to pretend that cutting benefite to the unemployed is being done to get them out of a benefit trap and save their lives.

    There are precious few jobs to compete for out there. The unemployed will not be able to compete without help or training. All you will do is make them poorer…and possibly homeless.

    One of the purposes of welfare is, surely, to reduce the possibility of crime and social unrest?

  2. Colin/John Fletcher

    Actually Orde not only has the right to criticise, but given what his job is, presumably he has the duty to do so. (I do have all sorts of questions over how ACPO works but that’s another issue. But it’s far from just a trade union).

    He was very impressive in Northern Ireland and should have been given the Met last time round – though he may feel that cleaning out one Augean Stables in enough for one lifetime. Though I do feel that his riot experience in NI will be a lot more relevant than Bratton’s in LA. And as Bratton hasn’t had any operational experience for two years, presumably that rules him out in your eyes anyway. ;)

    By the way are any of the people saying that Boris should appoint Bratton to the Met any of the same people who denounced Ken for appointing an American to TfL?

  3. @ Amberstar.

    He is not immune from criticism.

    I am going to change my wording to make it crystal what I meant.

    What JUSTIFICATION did Orde have for his comments.

    Anyone can criticise. However for a senior serving office to criticise a PM for seeking the widest possible advice is unjustifiable. Were the PM to act on that advice in a manner that Orde, in his professional opinion, thought was wrong, then he might have a case. But to criticise just for seeking the advice.?

    I notice that no one here has tried to justify his comments, just his “right” to make them.

    Typical. All about rights, nothing about responsibilities.

  4. @ Roger Mexico

    For the record, DC has never said he wanted to appoint Bratton as Commissioner, and neither has Boris. Bratton has put on record that he has never been asked.

  5. @ R Huckle

    The article you link to is wishful thinking. To paraphrase, some major points in the article:

    1. China could sink the US$ by dumping its $ holdings onto the market.
    It could but its own US$ denominated reserves, share-holdings & debt would be wiped out in the process. Such action would also merit retaliation from the US. As I’ve said, economic shock & awe could follow any attempt by China to mess with the US$.

    2. China could challenge the US in hightech & other, non-Labor intensive, manufacturing.
    It absolutely couldn’t. And I’ve already explained why.

    The US, together with its neighbor Canada, is capable of being self-sufficient in food, energy, raw materials, skilled labor & technology. China is not within a country mile of being in that position. All it’s recent growth & growth potential came from the US.

    And what the US has given, it can take away.
    8-)

  6. @ John Fletcher

    Sir Hugh Orde can say what he likes. It is a free country. He was asked for an opinion and he gave one.

    Cameron can obtain advice from whoever he chooses to listen to. There is no issue with obtaining advice from any person who has achieved success in their field. What Orde and other senior Police are unhappy about, is Camerons open criticism of Police officers and the appearance that he wanted to undermine them, by bringing in a ‘supercop’ to tell them what to do.

    Orde is quite right to slap down Cameron, as I believe a PM should be operating to higher standards. There is no way previous PM’s would have behaved as badly as Cameron.

  7. Nick Poole

    ‘I think it is disingenuous and deceitful to pretend that cutting benefite to the unemployed is being done to get them out of a benefit trap and save their lives’

    I thought their was all-party agreement that the current benefit system, was discouraging people moving from unemployment to employment. I think both EM and IDS want to reform benefits, with one aim, to reduce benefit dependency and increase self respect and self reliance. In wanting to reform the benefit system I do not think either are deceitful or disengenous.

  8. @ R Huckle

    In that case why did Orde not criticise Cameron for appearing to bring in Bratton? He was specifically criticising him for seeking Bratton’s advice, something you have agreed he is entirely within his rights to do.

    Cameron has never intimated he wanted to do anything more than seek advice and Bratton has confirmed it.

    If you have any evidence otherwise I would be delighted to be pointed in the right direction. But evidence only please and not left wing paranoid tittle tattle and gossip.

  9. @AmberStar

    To understand Colin and John F’s criticism of Sir Hugh Orde, you have to understand the meaning of blinkered partisanship. Orde is a highly respected and experienced senior Police Officer but has had the timerity, nay audacity, to criticise a Tory Prime Minister. This, in Colin and John’s eyes, is outrageous and, accordingly, he must be attacked and his reputation impugned. Partisanship allows and brooks no alternative.

    If, however, Orde had criticised Gordon Brown, let’s say, then no doubt Colin and John would have written something along these lines. “What has it come to when a highly respected Senior Police Officer has felt the necessity to go on record criticising the Prime Minister of this country. What more do we need to know about Brown’s incompetence and uselessness when he has now lost the confidence of one of our leading policemen. I know who I’d rather listen to when it comes to policing and criminality matters and it isn’t an ex-Scottish academic with no experience of…………. blah de blah”. I think you know the rest.

  10. Typical. All about rights, nothing about responsibilities..
    ————————————
    Typical, DC (the top) has the right to consult whomsoever he likes but no responsibility to consider the impact of such a move on the morale of our own police service at a difficult time for them.

    Responsibility again being good for those who are lower down the hierarchy whilst those at the top need not lead by example.
    8-)

  11. One thing that I hope recent events will bury with a stake through its heart is the idea of elected ‘police commissioners’. These aren’t operational commanders of course or indeed police at all but politicians who are supposed to set priorities. What is proposed isn’t that different from the current situation with the Met and the Mayor – especially when Boris chaired the Police Authority (he got bored).

    Even with the Met and Boris the problems are bad enough. Can you imagine dozens of little Borises with extra powers and their own bureaucracies clashing endlessly with their own police chiefs? The meaningless populist gestures they will try to make, the infinite scope for demarcation disputes, the scope for favouritism? I suspect the Courts will be kept busy deciding who can do what.

    I said at the time that the Tories should have used the Coalition Agreement to get rid of it, but I suppose they think it will be popular. It may be now but the public are fickle and one thing today’s polls show is that they will support the police over the politicians – even if they don’t think much of either of them.

  12. @ Crossbat11

    Awesome :-)

  13. R Huckle

    Orde is quite right to slap down Cameron, as I believe a PM should be operating to higher standards. There is no way previous PM’s would have behaved as badly as Cameron.

    Rewriting history, whether to undermine the PM or anyone else, does not achieve much. The police were slow off the mark, and junior officers were sometime restrained in the early days to stop looting and damage to property. Much of this was shown on TV and reported by the many victims. They have been given credit for the good work that was done over the period.

    What is clear from the Vaz interviews is that police chiefs as opposed to the old PC have been living the good life. It must stop and the police must be reformed. Not surprisingly the turkeys are doing all they can with the many PR advisers they now employ to stop Parliament; if they do then the Coalition will be punished at the polls and quite right too.

  14. @Crossbat11

    To understand Colin and John F’s criticism of Sir Hugh Orde, you have to understand the meaning of blinkered partisanship
    __________________________________________

    Please explain how Orde is justified in criticising Cameron for seeking advice from recognised expert in the field, amongst others.

    If you cannot explain then your entire argument falls, since you cannot justify Orde’s comment either.

  15. Amberstar

    Partisanship allows and brooks no alternative

    True and from your and a number of other posters point of view, any criticism of David Cameron is good criticism. I don’t blame you as you recognise DC is the Tory’s greatest asset. He must be undermined where possible.

  16. Will Orde be allowed to charge DC with wasting police time, if Bill Bratton has nothing useful to add to what the Uk police chiefs already know? ;-)

  17. Amberstar

    He will do whatever the many PR advisers (that police chiefs now employ as revealed in the Vaz interviews) advise.

  18. @ Amberstar

    Will Orde be allowed to charge DC with wasting police time
    __________________________________________

    I take it your little joke means you are not going to try to justify Orde’s criticism but rest your case on his right to do it alone. :)

  19. @JF

    “recognised expert in the field”

    What field, and who recognises him?

    I would argue (as apparently does Orde) that possible expertise in dealing with US gangs is of no relevance to the recent riots. We are coming from a different social and cultural starting point, and the riots have only a passing link to gangs at best.

    By flagging that a gang ‘expert’ might give advice, DC is attempting to make out that the riots were instigated and driven by gangs, rather than being derived out of social and economic ills that his government are heaping on the young poor. Irrespective of the extent to which gangs may have exploited the riots, there seems little to suggest that the riots happened *because* of gangs.

    Setting light to buses or buildings isn’t of any obvious benefit to those involved. To claim that such actions come from a desire for trainers and Xboxes really doesn’t hold water.

  20. John Fletcher/Colin

    You believe that the Police Service is in need of radical reform. You probably believe that to introduce elected Police Commisioners will add considerable accountability to the ordinary person.

    A range of posters do not agree. I am a little surpised at their vehemence as so recently Keith Vaz showed certain police chiefs to have feet of clay. Also, while I am not surprised that they are pleased that certain senior police are speaking out against the PM, I am surprised that they do not see the dangers of this highly political behaviour. I certainly oppose leaders within the public sector playing politics in this way. Hopefully, this will not occur under the next Labour administration but if it did I would strongly oppose that too.

  21. @ Henry

    …any criticism of David Cameron is good criticism.
    ——————————————————
    This is a polling/ political site.

    Polls have shown that the public are critical of David Cameron & Theresa May with regard to the looting/ riots.

    I do try to stay within the boundaries of this site. I’m not saying I’m always successful but I don’t think I’m gratuitiously critical of DC or disrespectful of the office he holds.
    8-)

  22. So are we now going to engage in a partisan battle to argue who is the most partisan? How meta. ;)

  23. John Fletcher

    I didn’t say that Cameron had said he would appoint Bratton (and I’ve already said that I doubt Bratton would accept it), but we all know that when such rumours are announced by the PM’s willing courtiers in the Press (and yes previous governments were no better), then it’s clear that something has been fed to them. Of course Cameron has no legal power over who gets appointed at the Met in any case, so if he announced wanted Colonel Gaddafi we shouldn’t take any notice.

    In reality I think the police are worried about the breaching of the principle of politicians having not any influence over operational matters, rather than the pols slightly pathetic attempts to claim credit for stopping the riots.

    And if you think politicians should have control over such things, you just wait till Ken’s Met beat down your door (the anti-terrorism legislation is so vague it can get you for anything) :D

  24. Mrs May did not do very well on the World at One today.

    Police numbers and the idea that she could order Senior Police Officers to change strategy were the difficult moments for her.

    Boris Johnson contradicted the Prime Minister, again, on the numbers of police and said that the
    Bratton strategyy depends on increasing the numbers of police officers.

    The Government had been spinning that Mr Bratton would be coming here.

    I am surprised to see people on here criticising our brilliant police officers. This is a mistake that the PM and Mrs May have come close to making, especially for a party of Law and Order.

  25. @ Robin

    I don’t think Orde has said anything of the sort.

    Incidentally neither has Cameron said that setting fire to buses came for a desire for trainers. He has said what happened was criminality pure and simple. In this case arson.

    However even if all your argument were true, why should a Police Officer decide who the PM can ask advice from and on what subject?

    Gangs had something to do with the riots. Bratton has experience of Gangs. It would be irresponsible of Cameron not to seek his advice.

    You are quite at liberty to argue all the points that you have made of course and to hold your opinions. But so is Cameron, just as he is at liberty to ask for advice from who he wishes.

  26. @ ROGER MEXICO/ CROSSBAT 11

    “Actually Orde not only has the right to criticise”

    Of course-but ultimately an elected politician responsible for policing has the responsibility to say what the governments policing objectives are.

    It seems we must congratulate the Scottish Police for having an open attitude to taking advice, for adopting/adapting proven methods from USA in adressing gangs in Glasgow-and for reaping the rewards for their citizens which that objectivity & determination has brought them.

    It seems senior English police officers are not able to do so.

    The appropriately responsible politicians will no doubt act accordingly.

  27. @ Henry

    David Cameron politicised the police & the army whilst in opposition.

    Not politicising them was a convention; DC had every right to over-turn that convention. He must, however, take responsibility for doing so & deal with the political consequences now he is no longer in opposition.
    8-)

  28. @chrislane1945

    I am surprised to see people on here criticising our brilliant police officers
    _________________________________________

    People including all ministers have heaped praise on the rank and file police. I am happy to do the same.

    Criticism has been restricted to some of the upper echelons of the service. To suggest that they are some above any criticism after the recent debacle, just because they are coppers is daft.

    Anyway, as the NOTW investigation showed they are entirely fallible, hence the resignations, and lots of lefties were more than happy to wade into them then.

    Double standards?

  29. Does DC’s stated desire to bring in a more American style of policing – elected Police chiefs etc – mean we will also have a more American style of criminality – guns, guns and more guns? Will our population require to be more readily armed to combat perceived lawlessness?

  30. chrislane1945

    “I am surprised to see people on here criticising our brilliant police officers.”

    Neil A seems a bright chap. Lots of my relatives have been police officers – bright guys all (though their educational attainment at school, that people have been quoting as significant, may not have been impressive).

    I haven’t noticed people criticising clever, as opposed to stupid, police officers.

    Did you mean that “our” police officers are brilliant, while police in other countries aren’t? Probably not, so what did you mean?

  31. Perhaps the Guardian could re-title this piece & address it to Hugh Orde:-)

    h ttp://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/05/glasgow-gang-busters-david-cameron

    I wonder if Orde would object to taking advice from Stirling Police -or do they count as foreign too? :-) :-) :-) :-)

  32. AMBER STAR

    Thank you for your reply to HENRY.

    Very measured.

    My impression is that the returning Front Bench, including the PM had a message spun that they were going to sort out the police strategy and tactics

    I think the traditional relationship is that politicians through parliament set out the policy, but senior police decide the strategy and tactics.

    I also think that sometimes suppoters of the Government get needled when the Government runs into trouble and criticisms.

    The police numbers issue will be a toxic one for the Government, I think

  33. @ John Fletcher

    Anyway, as the NOTW investigation showed they are entirely fallible, hence the resignations, and lots of lefties were more than happy to wade into them then.
    ——————————————-
    Those responsible resigned, John. We on the left accepted their resignations & moved on.

    Double standards, not ‘punishing’ the police service twice for the same crime? I don’t think so.
    8-)

  34. @JF

    “Gangs had something to do with the riots”

    Really? And you know this how?

    In what way did ‘gangs’ have any more to do with the riots than others who decided to try to take advantage of the situation? How many gang members are amongst those being fast-tracked through the courts?

    BTW this is what Order has said:

    ‘I am not sure I want to learn about gangs from an area of America that has 400 of them. It seems to me, if you’ve got 400 gangs, then you’re not being very effective,’

    and

    ‘If you look at the style of policing in the States, and their levels of violence, they are so fundamentally different from here.’

  35. Colin

    “It seems we must congratulate the Scottish Police for having an open attitude to taking advice……..It seems senior English police officers are not able to do so.”

    If that is true, then it isn’t restricted to policing, and it certainly is nothing to do with the abilities of professionals on different sides of a border!

    I remember being surprised when a Commons Committee was taking evidence on the value of your SATS, but took no evidence whatsoever from your nearest neighbours – Wales, who abolished then, or Scotland, which never introduced them anyway.

    When international comparisons suggested Scottish Education wasn’t delivering as it should, an OECD external analysis was commissioned, and good models were looked for internationally – cross party support, this isn’t a partisan point.

    Is it possible that small countries are more likely to recognise that they don’t have a monopoly of wisdom within their borders than bigger countries?

  36. @John Fletcher

    “Please explain how Orde is justified in criticising Cameron for seeking advice from recognised expert in the field, amongst others.”

    I think you need to understand the context in which Orde made his comments first before looking at the details of his specific criticism of Cameron’s rather ostentatious and headline-capturing announcement about Brittan. I detect some real disdain amongst senior Police Officers, in the Met and beyond, about the Governments attempts to shift blame for the failure to control the disaster that unfolded on our streets last week. Cameron sensed political catastrophe in the wind when he prematurely ended his holiday and returned to Downing Street and, after convening COBRA, has gone out of his way to portray himself as the nation’s saviour, taking over the reins from an ineffective police operation and restoring peace to our streets. Sure, he’s made some passing laudatory remarks about the bravery and courage of the police who had to deal with the anarchy and violence, but his subliminal message has been clear. It was a botched policing operation saved by the politicians.

    Now, if I was a police officer, of any rank, and I was at home with my wife and children, glad to be alive and unharmed after confronting the mob’s fury over four nights, would I be overly chuffed by reading implied criticisms from holidaying politicians, hell bent on saving their political skins and, wherever possible, keen to shunt blame elsewhere (poor policing, last Labour Government etc). Orde is probably reflecting widespread disillusionment amongst the Police, their self esteem further dented by Cameron’s untimely announcement that he is now seeking advice from the US.

    By the way, whither Ms May in all of this?

  37. @ Robin

    ‘I am not sure I want to learn about gangs from an area of America that has 400 of them. It seems to me, if you’ve got 400 gangs, then you’re not being very effective,’
    _________________________________________

    So what is the optimum number of gangs to have? 5. 10. 50 ?

    ‘If you look at the style of policing in the States, and their levels of violence, they are so fundamentally different from here.’
    _______________________________________

    Yes we were so lucky to have 4 days of such peaceful not violent riots weren’t we? No wonder Orde is so smug and self righteous.

  38. John Fletcher.

    I think the problem for the Government and supporters is that they tried to spin a line that it was the police who had got it wrong.

    They went public in implied criticisms.

    Now they are in trouble on the police numbers issue.

    In terms of the News of the World issue, I think the key problem for the Prime Minister is that he appointed Mr Coulston, despite the advice of the Deputy Prime Minister, who had also warned of riots on our streets if they were elected.

    A strategic error, I think, for the Government.

  39. TingedFringe
    So are we now going to engage in a partisan battle to argue who is the most partisan? How meta Fringe

    chrislane1945
    I also think that sometimes suppoters of the Government get needled when the Government runs into … criticisms.

    I agree, certainly I do.

    I really enjoyed earlier debates on ‘the broken society’, whether it is, if so what can be done, etc., I felt there was alot of common ground as well as disagreement and also views on how the public may see it. Yesterday was even more civilised with references to great music and even Latin.

    But inevitably it has been downhill this afternoon.

    We are back to DC is worse than useless and the police are great particularly the ones who criticise DC, and no DC is great but the police are useless, particularly the ones who criticise DC.

    Perhaps you can lead the discussion towards a less partisan topic , while I take my blood pressure tablets.

  40. @ Crossbat11
    Cameron sensed political catastrophe in the wind when he prematurely ended his holiday and returned to Downing Street and, after convening COBRA, has gone out of his way to portray himself as the nation’s saviour, taking over the reins from an ineffective police operation and restoring peace to our streets
    ___________________________________________

    Before Cameron came back, rioting out of control. After he came back, peace in London and one night of rioting in Birmingham, Manchester and a few other places . Then Peace.

    Coincidence.

    Sorry. I don’t believe in coincidence.

    The context in which Orde made his comments is that he does not want cuts and he does not want elected police commissioners. He will do everything he can to try to damage this government to prevent both happening.

    I can’t wait to get elected commissioners answerable to the voters, to give the voters what they want. Maybe then we will get a Robust Police Force of thief takers back instead of the namby pamby social work orientated Police Service we are currently burdened with. At great expense !!!!

  41. Colin

    As you know, the police are always willing to learn from the experience of other forces, near and far. The near ones are more likely to have the more relevant experience, but the far ones provide the more interesting holidays.

    However, like any group of professionals, they might believe that it would be unwise to adopt, unthinkingly, a model from elsewhere on the grounds that a politician thinks it is fashionable. See Blair T.

    The other problem with Bratton’s theories is that they are expensive, both in terms of policing and in other services. Also they may not work as well in Britain – paradoxically because similar ideas may have been tried and any policing solution will be subject to the law of diminishing returns.

    Incidentally the Telegraph seems to think that Bratton was offered the Met job. On the 5th August it reported:

    David Cameron wanted a former American “supercop” to become Metropolitan Police Commissioner but was overruled by Theresa May, the Home Secretary, The Daily Telegraph can disclose.

    Mr Bratton last night said he would have “considered it an honour” to have been given the opportunity to apply for the post.

    The move followed the resignation of Sir Paul Stephenson, the head of Scotland Yard, last month amid the phone hacking scandal.

    Sir Paul’s departure, followed soon after by the resignation of John Yates as Assistant Commissioner, left the force in turmoil and led to calls for its leadership to be refreshed.

    It is understood that Downing Street informally sounded out Bill Bratton, the former New York and Los Angeles police chief, to see if he would be interested in taking the country’s most senior policing job.

    Mr Bratton, who was praised for cutting crime and gang warfare during his time in both cities, signalled he would be interested when he was approached.

    But Mrs May was uncomfortable with the idea, which would have ripped up the centuries-old tradition of British citizens serving in the police. Any immediate move was effectively blocked when an advertisement for the post was issued by the Home Office that specified that “applicants must be British citizens”.

  42. @ Colin

    I remember the anti-gang effort in Glasgow & I’ll come back to it in a moment.

    First, I’ll quote from the Guardian article you highlighted:
    “It took another maverick, Karyn McCluskey, the deputy chief at Glasgow’s violence reduction unit, to bring the programme to the city. The results speak for themselves [or maybe not*]. She tried to kick-start the programme with the Metropolitan police but didn’t gain enough support. And the Home Office recommended that Manchester should adopt the model in 2001, but the police there didn’t believe it would work either.”

    Therefore, the Met & the Manchester forces have already evaluated the program. They aren’t saying ‘no’ to simply disagree with DC or with Bill Bratton. They have come to the conclusion that it isn’t likely to work in their local situation.

    * As to ‘the results speak for themselves”.. they don’t, actually because it wasn’t a controlled study. There’s nothing to show that wider socio-economic changes plus the increase in general police numbers/ budgets from 2001 to 2011 weren’t responsible for the 50% drop in crimes defined as gang-related.
    8-)

    There were other programs going on in the gang areas of Glasgow throughout the past decade. I know because members of my family were involved in bringing art, music, drama, sport & educational opportunities to all the people in these areas not just the violent element.
    8-)

  43. Roger Mexico

    “But Mrs May was uncomfortable with the idea, which would have ripped up the centuries-old tradition of British citizens serving in the police. Any immediate move was effectively blocked when an advertisement for the post was issued by the Home Office that specified that “applicants must be British citizens”.”

    Intersting.

    Given that Scotland has a different legal system and demographic (and Wales, NI increasingly so – not to mention the situation of Channel islands and your good selves), I wonder if May would be happy if these territories adopted a similar policy? Somehow, I suspect that she would be among the first to condemn an advert for the Chief Constable of Strathclyde that restricted applications to Scots.

  44. Amber

    Good post.

    Intervention programmes are hugely difficult to analyse in terms of their effectiveness. Where there are multiple interventions, their inter-connectedness makes it even more difficult to identify the critical features of each.

  45. “With the support of David Cameron, Conservative Wandsworth council was the first to attempt to evict tenants who had been caught up in the rioting.Wandsworth announced on Friday that the first eviction notice had been served – to the mother of an 18-year-old boy accused of violent disorder and attempted theft. The teenager has not yet been convicted but has appeared in court in connection with disturbances on Monday at Clapham Junction.” (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/aug/13/england-riots-coalition-response)

    I think this is appalling. Why should the whole family pay for the behaviour of one of them?

  46. Henry: moving away from partisan discussion on policing and the PM etc:

    In terms of society, I would want to repeat my question earlier, which I think had no response.

    In three weeks time the rioters will be back in school.

    What does Society want teachers to do with them? Society, which does exist, is in touch with young people for six hours a day, and indirectly with their parents.

    I am a classroom teacher, been so since 1979. Once described on here as a ‘council school master’. But since Oxford I have been on the ‘chalk line, now the white board line, and have been proud to do that.

    What do you think politicians, posters here and ‘the public’ want and expect?

    The Broken Society will only be healed if we get this right

  47. By the way it seems unlikely that Orde is unhappy about receiving advice from Bratton, who was given an honorary CBE in 2009. One of the notes to the citation read:

    Over the past several years, Chief Bratton has been a key figure in an extensive dialogue between UK and US police chiefs, a dialogue which began with a conference following the tragedy of September 11, 2001. Also many of the recommendations of the Independent Commission on Policing for Northern Ireland drew on Chief Bratton’s work in New York. He remains close to the policing reform process in Northern Ireland, and gives it valuable and solid support.

  48. As I understand it any leader of the Met has to have worked his way up through the ranks. I presume the same is the case for all Chief Constables. Do help me out here Neil A ;-)

    A directly elected police chief however could be just about anyone from any background. More than likely someone wealthy who is able to fund his/her own campaign, perhaps someone with half an eye on further political advancement further down the line.

    Of course this person might turn out to be good at running a police force…..and then again they might not. Personally I’d much rather put my trust in someone who’d been on the streets themselves had worked their way up from there and given their life to the Service.

    Has there been a simple question in any polls along the lines of “Are you in favour of directly elected Police chiefs”?

    The whole concept also begs the question – why stop there? Why not directly elected Health Chiefs, Education Chiefs, Social Service or Army, Navy, RAF Chiefs? Perhaps we could do away with politicians altogether? :-)

  49. chrislane1945

    In three weeks time the rioters will be back in school.
    What does Society want teachers to do with them? Society, which does exist, is in touch with young people for six hours a day, and indirectly with their parents.

    Thank you. but Difficult; to what extent do you think teachers can influence behaviour, particularly those over (Miss J Brodie’s and the Jesuits’) 7 years?

    In an earlier post, and in reference to the fact that now white boys are performing much worse than say Indian boys at school, I wondered whether education had much influence over children as opposed to their parents, peer pressure and culture.

    I would be very interested in knowing how you feel teachers and education can contribute.

  50. Chrislane1945

    “I am a classroom teacher, been so since 1979”

    So you have that “core of steel” that every good teacher needs to have. Without that the kids would have made mincemeat of you years ago! :-)

    Secondary, I presume? Presumably your managers (at all levels) have prescibed your role. Whether that is in any way useful is another matter. :-)

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