Tonight’s YouGov/Sunday Times poll has voting intentions of CON 36%, LAB 43%, LDEM 9%. Full report to follow tomorrow once the tables are up.


100 Responses to “YouGov/Sunday Times – CON 36%, LAB 43%, LDEM 9%”

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  1. Colin, Tinged Fringe and John Fletcher,

    I agree with all your comments on police and police reform.

    This morning the radio informed me that the police chiefs are still attacking Cameron, for the reasons I think you have covered. They have also criticised the use of Bill Bratton, and IMO are now 100% into a political war.

    The police receive high poll ratings, or at least better than politicians. However, I wonder how much this is down to the ordinary copper, and whether if the polls asked the right questions about police chiefs, accountability, use of PR, acceptance of gifts at the top level, they would receive very negative ratings.

  2. The political and social issues attached to the riots are now emerging and causing difficulties for DC and the coalition.

    Before the GE NC prophesised riots resulting from Con policies. There is growing dissent from LDs about the knee-jerk reaction from some Con elements.

    DC has clearly upset the police with his comments about police mistakes – the apparent suggestion that it was only the return of the gov that lead to the change in police tactics – and of course the recruitment of an American consultant. (Incidentally, although the gov may not pay Brattion for his services, can we look forward to invoices from his company?)

    EM is saying he will set up a ‘public enquiry’ if the gov do not do so. This is increasing pressure on DC to do another U-turn.

  3. Polls really are static at the moment.

    I think the message I have taken over the last couple of weeks is that Miliband is starting to make more of a case for himself as PM – he has done pretty well in the two big stories of the summer although he is still held back by the toxic pre-2010 brand!

    If I was a Tory I would be worried about the leadership. Every day Cameron is looking just like what he is, a PR man and I must admit I don’t think he is that good. Presentationally he does pretty well but the ability to follow through is missing.

    I think the big issue for the Tories is the air of sheer incompetence they are getting. There seems to be U turn after U turn and poor attention to detail. To be honest, I haven’t actually seen anything concrete that they have done that defines their values.

    An austerity program that has still too bite and I am not convinced they will be able to deliver it easily based on their response to opposition (forest sell-off, health reforms, police?). It is one thing being flexible…..

    An initial ‘Freedom Bill’ which is now being torn up in response to the riots – egged on by Labour as well

    The question of Laws has been raised a couple of times and dismissed as an irrelevance by some. To me it is not a major point but is instrumental in defining the values of the Government. If he is brought back then to me it completely destroys any chance of me voting LD and it shows that there really is one rule the establishment and another for us.

    The LD have been anonymous and, from someone who has voted for them in the last 3 elections, an irrelevance.

    What this all means for 2015 is difficult to tell but I am becoming more convinced we will see a pre-2015 election.

    My report card mid-2011

    Labour: Okay and getting a bit more coherent leadership
    Tories: Okay but leadership looking weaker and inconsistent
    LD: Still a walking disaster – mainly due to leadership

  4. “There is growing dissent from LDs about the knee-jerk reaction from some Con elements.”
    Emphasised by Simon Hughes’ opposition to the evictions.

    As, with all the other coalition issues, the LibDems need to rethink what, as a party, they stand for.
    Either the Orange Bookers (Clegg, et al) and the coalition loyalists need to take control of the party, there needs to be a rebellion against the party leadership or those uncomfortable with the coalition need to leave.
    Much like Cameron, Blair and Thatcher took control of their party’s direction.

    A house divided cannot stand, as Lincoln put it.

  5. John Fletcher

    ‘Your underclass is one of choice. No one has to take drugs, abuse alcohol or resort to petty crime. All of them have has access to education and healthcare. They have a generous benefits system which means they do not go hungry and have a roof over their heads. It is therefore their choice to be a member of your underclass and I have little sympathy for them’.

    I think it is very difficult for a baby/kid brought up (or rather living under the roof of) those with drug or alcohol habits and who provide no parental example to achieve much.

    The ‘old poor’, who I would not necessarily define as an underclass often provided little in material goods to their kids, but alot of love attention, discipline and encouragement. Often these could felt safe and secure and flourished and achieved alot.

    My own family has experienced this. My father’s father was brought up by manual farmworker’s on hardly enough to live; however he was always encoutraged by loving parents and entered an apprenticship and became a surveyor. Unfortunately soon after my father was born his father became very ill and could not work and the family again hit hard times. My father was looking for work at 14 in the late 20s. But he had loving parents and other relatives and this helped him in had times. He became reasonably successful and provided a secure and comfortable childhood for myself.

    My understanding is that IDS has identifed a section of the community that needs help, and I believe the help he would like to give will not just break welfare dependency but also provide kids with an opportunity to escape this unloving. uncaring environment. Perhaps I hope for too much.

  6. Tinged Fringe

    “There is growing dissent from LDs about the knee-jerk reaction from some Con elements.”
    Emphasised by Simon Hughes’ opposition to the evictions.

    Yes. I found it difficult to understand evictions; apart from the rights and wrongs of such action. Won’t the families still have a right to be re-housed. If so what has been achieved.

    I see that Nick Clegg’s rating has risen 8 points; inevitable perhaps given the low base but perhaps a light at the end of a very long tunnel. I can only hope.

    LDs IMO suffer from two major problems, being govt LDs no longer receive the anti-govt protest vote that will go to Labour or others. LDs are still suffering from loss of trust having made a huge mistake on tuition fees promises. One or two members led the rest, like the Pied Piper of Hamlin, to its present political turmoil. Hopefully at least lessons learned for the future.

  7. “My understanding is that IDS has identifed a section of the community that needs help, and I believe the help he would like to give will not just break welfare dependency but also provide kids with an opportunity to escape this unloving. uncaring environment. Perhaps I hope for too much.”
    What’s interesting about IDS, also, is that he isn’t accepting the party line that this is ‘just criminality’.
    He talked yesterday strongly about how deprivation and unemployment do play a large role in gang problems – something that the party line denies.
    He pointed to a complex set of reasons for the problems we face.

    Which ties exactly in to what Ed Miliband has been saying – both left and right have part of the answer to a complex issue.
    (I’ve said it before – so forgive me for repeating myself) Hopefully both IDS and Miliband can look beyond short-term party politics and tie those narratives together and come up with a joint solution.

    From a purely partisan point of view, backing IDS is in the long-term interests of the Labour party as it puts increased pressure on Osborne to change where the cuts, taxes and debt fall.
    If Osborne has to change his spending plans, to give IDS the funding that he needs, it would be a big PR boon for the Labour party.

  8. @ Alec

    A full public enquiry would go into all kinds of areas that Cameron doesn’t want the discussion to go into.

    ________________________________________

    Such as?

  9. What the riots seem to prove is that ignoring social ills (i.e. cutting funding) is likely to lead to massive cost increases elsewhere (police, prisons, courts etc).

    Same with schools. The NHS emergency waiting times are on the up too.

    I don’t think cuts work. They just move costs around.

  10. Tinged Fringe

    Yes you are repeating yourself as am I but maybe these things are worth repeating. I agree, with perhaps the exception of who will gain politically. IDS is IMO a breath of fresh air as far as the Tories are concerned both for his wish to reform but also his grasp of the subject. This may help the Tories image in the longer term.

    .

  11. Nick Poole:

    The problem with that theory is that the funding cuts haven’t yet been around long enough to have a significant effect on public order. FWIW, my guess is that the main contributory factor was the increase in unemployment amongst young people (that and social media making it easier to organise copycat riots).

    And this is a problem. If funding cuts increase social disorder ON TOP OF the existing unrest brought on by other factors, we could be in big trouble.

  12. Nick Poole

    The NHS emergency waiting times are on the up too.

    This something I do not understand. If the NHS is ringfenced financing why should waiting times rise, or have some risen and some fallen?

    Also I back the Coalition cuts in general and would argue they are essential (perhaps partisan). However, if a Minister comes up with a startling good idea that may have a range of benefits on wlefare, but also as you say could save money why can’t that money be found?

  13. BAZSC

    The LD have been anonymous and, from someone who has voted for them in the last 3 elections, an irrelevance.

    I am surprised that you voted LD, was this tactical or were there some policies of which you approved.

    One benefit to the LDs as I see it in sharing Govt, is that if they make impossible promises, they will come back to haunt them. Even so the experience for Nick Clegg, Vince Cable and others actually in Govt is invaluable.

  14. @John Fletcher – “Such as?”

    Such as;

    – The link between income disparity and crime
    – The link between wealth inequality and violence
    – The contribution to reduced crime and social cohesion since 1997 brought about by extensive engagement programmes and youth services (public funded and third sector)
    – The likely impact of cuts to these areas under Coalition spending plans
    – The disparity in sentencing policy between rioters and white collar criminals
    – The message sent out by the behaviour of MPs, bankers, news editors etc and whether this has any bearing on the behaviour of young people.

    These are just a few ideas I’ve rattled out off the top of my head, but I’m sure an independent enquiry would find others.

  15. henry

    targetting spending is always important. Cutting it is another matter.

    I don’t know what the solution(s) is (are). But slashing spending is not a solution to anything. It doesn’t even reduce spending, merely forces spending up elsewhere.

    It’s not so much an “argument” as an observation.

  16. @ Alec.

    Of your list the only one that can be laid at DC’s door is the predictable “cuts”

    Everything else was created and tolerated by 13 years of a Labour Government so DC would have nothing to fear from those revelations.

  17. @ Henry – “This something I do not understand. If the NHS is ringfenced financing why should waiting times rise, or have some risen and some fallen?”

    Isn’t it because the Coalition scrapped the Performance Management Targets?

    It ain’t rocket science ;-)

  18. It seems to me that the solution to “unfairness” is not cutting benefits necessarily but redistribution of wealth.

    This isn’t achived by raising VAT. It can only be achieved by taxation of income or wealth. Any pretence that VAT is a “progressive” tax is basically a lie.

    What you do with the the money taken from the rich is ripe for discussion. But frankly cuts and VAT rises don’t redistribute wealth which is what is required.

  19. Alec

    The link between income disparity and crime
    The link between wealth inequality and violence

    I don’t think it is easy to dispute about wealth inequality, although I am unsure about the links to crime and violence (may or may not be the case I just don’t know).

    The vast majority of households receive around the median income (about £23k?). Most families with kids receive at least half that and few people receive more than 5 times that.

    However, the inequality is at the top, where bankers or footballers and FTSE CEOs get as much in a day as the median family gets in a year. There are some very very rich people who also have alot of power over our lives. It is sometimes suggested that a million pounds is alot of money, but some of these people have a 1000 times that.

    New Labour struggled to come to terms with it, and I don’t think the Coalition is doing much about; however I am not sure what the solution is.

  20. Henry.
    Thank you for your sharing here- similiar to Mr Bevin’s story- a Somerset boy who ended his career by being Churchill’s Minister of Labour and Mr Attlee’s Foreign Secretary- or greatest ever, arguably.

    My Father’s story would be similar, born in 1925 son of a south wales coal miner. Education was the key. Port Talbot Grammar school provided the ladder.

    The State, from Wednesday September 5 2011, has direct contact with the child rioters and those who may well want to imitate them for about 6 hours a day- in our schools.

    Do any politicians or posters here, or leadership groups in school or in wider society know what is to be done? (To enable teacher to educate- e ducere- them)

    Indirectly through the pupils the State has a link to the Parents/Guardians of the young people.

  21. Nick Poole
    It seems to me that the solution to “unfairness” is not cutting benefits necessarily but redistribution of wealth.

    There has been a huge redistribution of wealth. However unfortunately it has been from the middle and lower income to both families on benefits, which have risen substantially in recent years, and the very rich. Robin Hood in this case has not taken from the rich to give to the poor but rather battered the ‘poor’ middle income earners.

  22. Why surprised I voted LD?

    I live in the north so we have seen a more left wing vein of the LD than seen in the south

    I am a centre-left voter who vehemently opposed the Iraq invasion.

    I believe in free education for all to tertiary level

    I support fairer taxation and better worker’s rights. Redistribution of wealth – in the opposite direction to that we have seen

    I support the strategy of slower deficit reduction with focused spending to encourage growth.

    I support investment in the green economy and the funding of research into these areas

    I opposed the Labour civil liberties erosion

    I, like a lot of LD voters, was probably unaware of the ‘under the radar’ move to the right on economical policies. A stupid mistake I won’t be making again

  23. Woodsman

    Isn’t it because the Coalition scrapped the Performance Management Targets?
    It ain’t rocket science

    OK glib, but the way all parties struggle to deliver a overall good NHS service makes it appear more difficult than rocket science.

    I am no expert of NHS perfortmance targets although I understand how they can be used and misused.

    However I would be interested in why the scrapping of these targets means that the standards of our dedicated professionals in the NHS has suddenly plummetted.

  24. BAZSC

    Thanks for your very detailed response. Very interesting.

  25. Former assistant commissioner Tarique Ghaffur has thrown a hand grenade at the Met :-

    A plan under which 3k to 6k riot trained officers could be mobilised within hours was abandoned four years ago as it clashed with the “neighbourhood policing” policy.

    An internal report of 2005 warned that 200 gangs had taken control of whole estates in certain inner city areas. They report identified gang leaders who oversee an army of workers. Recruitment is from problem families where children transfer their need for parental role models to the gang leader.
    The report is said to have advocated tough policing & harrassing of gang leaders , together with displacement of young recruits by mentoring , the object being the dismantling of the gang infrastructure.
    This report was not actioned it seems.

    IDS writes in ST today setting out the guts of a plan similar to the above, modelled on the Strathclyde method; itself modelled on USA experience.

    All Revenue/Licencing authorities & the POlice would hound gang leaders , following up the least infringement of the law. They would be given the option of leaving the gang on agreed terms. Young recruits ( as old as 8 !!!) would be mentored & given rehabilitation support .

    Former Assistant Commissioner David Gilbertson, writing in MoS lamasts the senior officers in the Met for leaving the police on the ground in Tottenham without clear orders. They were left operating current public order proceedures, whilst facing an emerging violent riot.

    The sight of police standing back was transmitted by social media to encourage wholesale looting .

  26. Henry

    The standards of the dedicated health professionals hasn’t plummeted.
    Public satisfaction with the NHS was at a record high earlier this year. Something that rather inconveniently didn’t fit into Lansley’s reform narrative.

    But the standards by which the health professionals are assessed has been changed. Perhaps because Lansley wants to introduce more private firms into the NHS?

  27. 2800 arrested so far.
    This is definitely something that’s going to have to be handled carefully – it’s easy to say, ‘Bang ’em all up’, but almost 3000 people in a huge number.
    That’s going to be a huge strain once those people are all released. A lack of co-ordination could mean thousands of prisoners all released together on the same day – that’s a logistical nightmare.

  28. Much is being made of the role of gangs in the riots. This is hardly surprising as it allows the gov to divert attention away from the effects of policy issues and inequality.

    An independent public enquiry is needed to establish the causes and the role played by various elements including gang culture. But to start immediately from the premise it’s all gang related/generated seems to me to be purely political and inappropriate.

  29. @BillyBob,

    Thanks for the links. It seems like Cameron has never mentioned the idea of Bratton for Commissioner publicly (so the reports, if true, can only be leaks of private conversations) and Bratton himself denies ever being asked to do the job. Not much of a story really.

    On the issue of the underclass, welfare and crime, I will pin my heart on my sleeve and say that it is the widespread and generous nature of benefits that has lead (along with myriad other factors, from pop culture to globalisation) to an explosion of the underclass, not the lack of them. A youth from today’s “underclass” is far, far better off materially than a youth from the working poor of the 1950s, but the morally corrosive effect of being given, or taking, their resources rather than “earning” them has eradicated the sense of participation and community spirit that used to counteract criminal instincts.

  30. Reading the accounts of those so far sentenced is interesting.

    The more srious offences are being refered to the Crown Court & it will be instructive to read those accounts as they appear.

    It looks to me like two tiers of involvement:-

    First the gangs/criminals who latched onto the initial police tactics as an opportunity for widespread unopposed mayhem & looting.

    Second, a cohort of people -adults & young, from a cross section of society, students, employed people-erstwhile “ordinary citizens” who got carried away with it all & joined in to nick some free stuff.

    THis latter group brought to mind Golding’s “Lord of The Flies “. One victim of arson interviewed on tv , in answer to a question -what do you make of it now?-said it makes you realise what a thin veneer lies between civilisation & chaos………….precisely Golding’s point.

    Keith Vaz & his team have a very interesting task ahead of them.

  31. In all this discussing, I forgot to do my weekly poll update (not that anybody really cares) –

    Unweighted figures –
    Con – 35.8 (+0.6)
    Lab – 43.2 (nc)
    Lib – 9 (-0.6)
    Approval -27 (-0.8)

    Weighted figures are about the same, so not really worth giving the detail for – nc for Lab, Con about +0.6, Lib about -0.6.

  32. What do people think about the conspiracy theory regarding the riots that is being raised by a number of people elsewhere.

    The theory is that the riots were triggered deliberately to deal with a number of issues. These were to deal with the gangs in parts of London who have been able to take control of certain streets. To create public support for an authoritarian crackdown on gang culture and anti-social behaviour in certain parts. To put known trouble makers in prison before the Olympics. And for the Government to challenge vested interests within the Police service and social services.

    Personally I think people are drawing conclusions from certain perceived positives coming out of the recent riots. If there were any forces behind the riots orchestrating them, I am not sure who would have done this. The people putting forward conspiracy theories probably also think that the government have secret information on UFO’s.

  33. Neil A

    “….youth from today’s “underclass” is far, far better off materially than a youth from the working poor of the 1950s”.

    I was born in the 50s, and my recollection of my early years is of hard times following the end of the war. I sugegst there was a greater unity across society then arising directly from war effort. I thik it’s also easy to overlook the radical changes taking place then in the welfare state (eg health service).

  34. @ Mike N

    I too was born in the early 50ies.

    I well remember being dragged home by my local bobby for riding my bike at night without a rear light.

    Result. 6 of the best.

    Ahhh. those were the days. :)

    Since then all contact with the police has been by way of assistance to them.

  35. @Neil A – “Not much of a story really.”

    Perhaps.

    David Cameron has always been associated with a clique within the Tory party… if you google “Cameron – the PR years” (The Guardian), you will see comments from people who had a working relationship with him at Carlton… this may be sour grapes on the part of a few disgruntled people, or it may tell you something deeper about the way he operates, the jury is still out.

  36. John Fletcher
    “I well remember being dragged home by my local bobby for riding my bike at night without a rear light.”

    Your parents could afford a bike? ;-)

    “Result. 6 of the best. Ahhh. those were the days.”

    I have previously detected some masochistic tendency in your posts. ;-)

    So, were the 1950s some golden era?

  37. @ Mile N

    Its no coincidence that “Happy Days” is set in the 50ies. :)

  38. R Huckle
    “What do people think about the conspiracy theory regarding the riots that is being raised by a number of people elsewhere.”

    The theory is IMO rubbish. There can be no certainty about how the killing of one man would lead to a protest and then riots across England. It’s implausible, IMO.

    But the riots are an opportunity for various elements (eg the police) to propose and put forward various arguments and policies. I guess it’s ever been thus.

  39. Time for my anecdote (of the 1980s police).

    Just walking on the streets doing nothing when suddenly Black Maria (wasn’t really black in those days but still called them that). Dragged into the back, taken home and given a few slaps for our trouble (no idea why).

    Never trusted the police since!

    Mind you I was brought up in the part of the Wolverhampton that had the WM SCS based at the local police station – they were a nasty bunch!

    Anecdotes about how things happened in the past are not really helpful though.

    Policing is different to how it was then and so is society. Perhaps this week’s events may lead to a review of what we can learn – should we invest in proactive avoidance of the problem, or as some suggest, just concentrate on a hard reaction. I always favor the former but, unless it is a call for Natuonal Service, it is in someway seen as being soft

  40. John Fletcher

    “Its no coincidence that “Happy Days” is set in the 50ies”

    Hmmm, I wonder how representative of life in the USA ‘Happy Days’ really was

    .

  41. @ Mike N

    “The theory is IMO rubbish. There can be no certainty about how the killing of one man would lead to a protest and then riots across England. It’s implausible, IMO.”

    I agree that the conspiracy theory is rubbish and some people are looking to sell books. One such person who I will not give any publicity to is an ex FBI agent, who apparently carried out some filming including some of the court cases. He will apparently be releasing some information in a few months, presumably at the same time he launches his new book.

    Perhaps the thoery is not about the initial Police shooting, but about the way subsequent events were handled. i.e Police stood back to collect as much CCTV evidence as possible and then the justice process was swift, with sentences being handed down which were more than for other previous similar offences.

  42. Bazsc
    “Dragged into the back, taken home and given a few slaps for our trouble (no idea why).”

    I’m not sure I should ask, but what the hell. What is the colour of your skin?

  43. @John Fletcher – What I think Cameron fears, and to be fair, pretty much all leading UK politicians fear, is for the known linkage between crime, violence and social inequity to be aired and understood by the wider public. I was interested that this factor recieved a very low ranking in the polls by the public, but it is known to be the most important social variable affecting crime and violence the world over.

    Traditional responses to riots revolve around tougher approaches to law and order and/or dealing with the ’causes’ of the disorder, with family breakdown often cited as a key reason. What no politicians grasp is that the clear evidence, demonstrated by study after study for more than 40 years, shows that such things as family breakdown, divorce, social dislocation – even mental health problems – are all inextricably linked, along with crime and violence, to the relative differences in wealth and incomes between the richest and the poorest.

    Frankly, it’s politically extremely easy for politicians to target things like abuses of welfare, tougher sentencing, the gang culture etc. But action on these won’t solve the root problem and won’t deliver a safer society. No politician want’s to tackle the extremely powerful vested interests that would need to be tackled if they were really going to deal with the cause, rather than the symptoms. Indeed, most of our Oxbridge educated politicians are part of the problem themsleves, so its no surprise they don’t want to deal with it and usually can’t even see the problem.

    I’m not so much criticising Cameron, as highlighting what I see as the massive disconnect between people and government across all parties. There is simply no recognition of what real life is like and a willful ignorance to address the real issues.

    In many ways I deem Labour to be even worse in this area, as historically they pose as being the friend of the working class. With MPs like Stella Creasy (Magdelene, LSE, think tank Deputy Director, political researcher) and Tristram Hunt (son of a Lord, Trinity College, Chicago University, broadcaster and historian) being foisted on deprived inner city constituencies as they were safe bets for Labour and the individuals were favoured by the party hiearchy, you can just see how the disconnect becomes ever more entrenched.

    I’m not saying these are bad people or poor MPs necessarily, but it is extraordinarily difficult for the real views of ordinary people to be heard within the current system, so every time we experience a problem we revert back to the old knee jerk responses rather than go back to the starting point and address the problem via route one.

  44. Mike N

    I am white but I was with two non-white friends – inter race friendships were common then (and still are now I imagine). Most of the trouble was based on where you lived rather than being along race lines.

    I had friends that come from the Heath Town part of Wolves which is largely afro-carribean but there was not really that much racial tension within the community

    The WM SCS was based near us though and they were really bad news – I was at school with one of the sons of a renowned member of that squad (see Private Eyes passim…).

    Things have improved in Wolverhampton immeasurably since then and I really hope we don’t see all this progress through community engagement lost because of any cuts. We have one of the highest unemployment rates in the country and need to try and avoid the scenes of last week happening again. Reactive tough policing is the last thing we need – that would really take us back to the 80s

  45. @ Alec

    are all inextricably linked, along with crime and violence, to the relative differences in wealth and incomes between the richest and the poorest.
    ________________________________________

    I do not disagree with you.

    The problem is however how do you make the income levels more even.

    Top salaries are now decided on a global level not a national level. Tax more and the jobs just move abroad.

    Given that the poorest are on benefits to raise their relative income you need to raise benefits but this just rewards people even more for doing nothing or very little. This is already recognised as being part of the problem. What would they do with the extra money anyway. Buy more trainers or flat screen TV’s?

    We could try to make work for those on lowest income more rewarding by raising the minimum wage. However all this would do it make much of our industry less competitive and encourage even more immigration to snap up the better paid jobs.

    Market forces decide income levels and IMO market forces are like gravity. You can only fight them for so long before they get you.

  46. people forget that the 1980 riots began in Brixton as a kickback against stop and search being used to harrass young mostly black men in Brixton. This bunch of riots can be traced directly to the police shooting a man in tottenham.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of that a huge number of people (predominately poor) seem to perceive the police as the enemy and essentially a rival gang in some places.

    The police need to be better. That was part of the report into the 80s riots and the Stephen Lawrence enquiry.

    The disparity of wealth needs addressing and to me that means taxing higher earners and probably middle earners too. Raising the basic rate of income tax in fact and taking the ceiling off NI employees’ contributions.

    Tax me rather than freeze my pay, that is fairer than just freezing public service pay. Stop cutting jobs that need doing, stop privatising and outsizing for no profit. Stop trying to make a quick buck and start thinking about EVERYBODY.

    How the Government can seriously defend its policy with riots on the streets and no growth I cannot fathom. Because rich newspaper owners like low taxes?

  47. @Nick,

    How can you get from “whatever the rights and wrongs” to “the police must be better”?

    From what I currently understand of the Duggan shooting, there is no evidence whatsoever of wrongdoing by the police. Of course it will take a while for the full details to emerge, and it’s too early to make judgements. But if the police were entirely right to do what they did, then in what way must they be better?

  48. R Huckle

    “…i.e Police stood back ….”

    The images I saw of some of the riots showed rather low number of police facing larger number of rioters.

    Apart from the ‘unfortunate’ shooting of Duggan I think the police handled the riots well – gven the difficulty of actually knowing with certainty where and when they would occur and lack of availability of officers at short notice.

    I’m pleased and relieved of what i have seen of how the police responded to and dealt with rioters. The story isn’t about how the police harmed people, thank goodness.

  49. Colin

    “And if the senior elected representative in the land wants to take advice from USA-or anywhere else-on Policing , he is perfectly entitled to do so.”

    “And if an ex-PR man and heir-to-Blair sees a PR opportunity he’ll jump on it.”

    Some things are best left to professionals. Surgery is one and riot control is another. Mistakes are made and professionals don’t get it right all the time, but armchair critics are no help at all and just get in the way.

  50. Amberstar

    Thank you for adding to my vocabulary. I will b ore accurate in future.

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