In YouGov’s daily poll for the Sun yesterday we also asked for the first reactions to Phil Woolas being ejected from Parliament. 71% thought that the courts were right to expel Woolas, with only 7% thinking they had made the wrong decision. There was also very little sympathy for the argument that the ruling risked stifling free political debate during elections. Only 9% thought the law was wrong and a restriction on free speech, with 74% supporting it.


494 Responses to “71% think the courts were right on Woolas”

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  1. @ Colin

    I shall post as I like – I simply won’t address it to you.

    I am sorry to see that you consider my having the same view as B. Warsi to be “equivocation”; & also that you disliked my attempt at humour in that regard.

    8-)

  2. Interesting report from Civitas

    h ttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/7897125/White-Christian-Britons-being-unfairly-targeted-for-hate-crimes-by-CPS-Civitas-claims.html

  3. pete B

    thanks

    i’ve always had a soft spot for john major, a much maligned character, much the same as a certain gordon

  4. Eoin Clarke

    There are two options for Ireland the way i see it.

    1)Call in the IMF only(perhaps keep CT level) but go through harder times financially,perhaps be forced out of the Euro.

    2)Call in the EU/IMF(more likely) except ECB(German) control of you economy & lose your low CT level,go through a less hard time though financially.

    Even the Irish Central Bank Governor has said today that Irish bank losses through 2012 will be 85bn euro.or 55% of GDP.

    Goldman Sachs is today calling for Ireland & Portugal to go the the IMF/ECB now.

    Ireland dosn’t have to go to the markets in 2010,the bond vigilantes will just wait until your funds run out though,this needs to be done soon in my opinion.

    The Irish Government is talikng about not going to the markets for more money until June 2011,the way they will do this is by spending the nations pensions fund.

    The pressure on the Euro could bring this to a head very soon.

    Ireland is not independent ,yesterday the ECB went to Dublin to check over your 2011 budget to see if they agreed with the proposals before it is announced.

    Independence is Ireland is a myth.

  5. Amber

    “If the foreign students are not to subsidise the UK students, why have them? There is no shortage of UK applicants – & with alternative methods of funding there would be even more UK applicants.”

    That wasn’t my point. Charge too much – and they won’t come at all, and the revenue stream disappears.

  6. Richard,

    I’ll reply proper in a bit… but first I would aks that you would read this article… (for a bit of balance).

    h ttp://www.herald.ie/national-news/we-wont-fall-into-bailout-trap-lenihan-2414024.html

  7. Frederic Stansfield

    You were asking about copies of the offending leaflets in the Woolas case. If you go to this copy of the judge’s ruling:

    ht tp://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2010/2702.html

    and scroll to the bottom, you can see them in all their hideous glory.

    YouGov archive is back up again now by the way.

  8. I saw the interview with Lenihan and what I do not understand is what relevance this issue has to UK polling.

    Eoin and Richard please explain, nutshell please.

  9. Howard

    Because UK & German Banks are exposed to the tune of 145bn euro(UK) & 128bn Euro(German).

    That a good enough reason for you?

  10. Has the PM now made Prince Andrew redundant in his capacity promoting ‘British’ industry abroad?

    In the long term DC could be seen to be constructing a dimished role on the world stage for the UK. Rather than making a claim to be the ‘bridge’ between the US and Europe, we could end up having much less influence in either camp.

    The offer of a ‘new big special relationship’ with India is reported to have been met with bemusement: “Oh, thank you… Dave who?”

  11. Richard
    No

    Try again somone -should explain 5 points opinion shift at least.

  12. Howard,

    For England three implications if Ireland fail

    1. Austerity is dealt a propoaganda blow as being of potential benefit

    2. Corporation Tax climbs in Ire again leaving England and Tories isolated to make a case for low corp

    3. Germany will reap the rewards of increased influence (a Federal overisght into domesti cbudgets would grew ever closer)
    _____________________

    In my view we are not comparing liek with like… Ireland is a tiny streamlined state with little public sector…. the UK is much closer to an old fashioned social democracy (but with a free market model attached onto it)

    I hope that helps.

  13. Old Nat /Amber
    The level of fees is not the most important factor in student destinations though of course highly relevant.
    English language is first priority even from countries where it is goig to be a third language. This factor is fading as universities everywhere move to English medium.
    Then comes political issues. American universities have plummeted in attractiveness because of the George bush factor. Then migration laws and ease of entry. Ten possibilities of work while studying and after qualification. Then accommodation costs.
    Entrants from say China/India are amazingly well-informed. Britain is without doubt first choice.
    BTW the largest group of overseas students is always likely to be Chinese. About 12000000 per year are entering higher education
    Ken
    The Mayor of Nagasaki was in Aberdeen last week for a Glover event. Mitsubishi fund a small museum here.

  14. Eoin Clarke

    With all due respect,this is all you come out with,read this article & that article.

    I am coming up with facts,real facts from the persons involved,(mostly Irish themselves).

    Central Bank Governor Patrick Honohan today:

    Mr Honohan said loan losses at Irish lenders, including foreign-owned banks, come to no less than €85 billion 55% of the nations GDP.(the IMF were present in the discussions,it has been confirmed).

    Ernst & Young report yesterday:

    Irish home prices will not return to 2008 levels until at least 2024,N-ireland 2020,UK 2013.
    Irish unemployment will rise through 2012 & not drop below 10% until at least 2018.

    Ireland needs a bailout!

  15. @ Old Nat

    That wasn’t my point. Charge too much – and they won’t come at all, and the revenue stream disappears.
    ——————————————
    They don’t generate much revenue anyway. And you are simply equipping foreign competition with the skills to compete against your own citizens.

    It is short-termism, whilst there is no reciprocity. Once China & India etc. are willing to level the playing field, then educate as many of their students as wish to come; & at a price that they can afford.
    8-)

  16. Richard,

    Irish 10 year bonds have been suspended fro sale, ie withdrawn fro the market. their interest is thus irrelevant. If you plan to feed off some carcass you will have to look elsewhere.

    Ireland has now introduced 3 austertity drives in comparives terms 140 bn of cuts (with UK). A chink of irelands tax receipts is very very stable because it is based on exports… thus their coffers can be forecasted to a good degree of accuracy… with a very very slimline public sector they do not have the huge bill a country like England does… Thus debt to GDP on an annual basis will be sub 3% very very soon

    All facts not opinion…

    As regards the skill sof their workforce, the determination of the major corps to stay, it all looks good.

    Unemployment does not look good I accept at 12% but it has been much much higher beforehand… our youth will take their engineering skills to England. This is one of the reasons that unemployment has fallen two years in a row…

    because our tax recepts are less dependant on our domestic market…. Irlenad can absorb a bit of delfation, which is probably headed its way..

    Its totla assets are still massive, there is a lot for scall crows to feed on which is what I suspect is your interest…

    My advice, is that you underestimate the resilience and flexibility of the Irish workforce at your own peril…

    Go and feed on some other baby state please.

  17. Richard

    *two months in a row (I typed in haste)

  18. @ Richard

    You are just quoting from articles in the press. I know because I have read the news items you are quoting; Éoin simply cuts out the middleman & allows us to read it for ourselves. 8-)

  19. eoin

    i’m afraid that Richard is right

    Ireland does need a bailout and it should move fast while it can still get a bailout, i think it’s a case of first come first served

    but also they cannot absorb losses from their banks, they should bankcrut them

  20. richard In Norway,

    I am not in the business of telling people they are wrong. Richard will confirm that I have explained to him before thatw e will all know soon enough! It seems he revels in Irleand’s impending doom. I on the other hand, will naturally be drawn to hope for its chances of surivival

    Human thought is not formed in isolation.

  21. @ Richard in Norway

    Another alternative that is being mooted: Sell the Irish banks to China. It is not being ruled out.

    Lead business story in the Guardian:
    Greece & Portugal have made significant efforts to attract Chinese investors to stabilise their debt markets and to inject cash into their ailing economies. Asked if he would allow Chinese ownership of Irish banks, Honohan said he is “too much an internationalist to say no to that”.
    8-)

  22. amber,

    Another point that I did not wish to post is that the EU has been buing Irish bonds for some time. I was not sure if Richard knew so I wanted to make less of it. Inforaton retained has more value than information shared I usually find ;)

  23. Eoin Clarke

    This article(as you like them so much) is from perhaps Ireland’s most respected economist,2 days ago he wrote this:

    SAD NEWS just in from Our Lady of the Eurozone Hospital: After a sudden worsening in her condition, the Irish Patient, formerly known as the Irish Republic, has been moved into intensive care.

    September marked Ireland’s point of no return in the banking crisis. During that month, €55 billion of bank bonds (held mainly by UK, German, and French banks) matured and were repaid, mostly by borrowing from the European Central Bank.

    The amount being spent on bank debts, €70bn, far outweighs the €15bn in savings planned by the Irish government between now and 2014.

    From here on, for better or worse, we can only rely on the kindness of strangers,” he concludes.

    This situation has a very real chance of contagion without swift action.

    MORGAN KELLY

    With the Irish Patient now clinically dead, her grieving European relatives face the melancholy task of deciding when to remove her from life support, and how to deal with the extraordinary debts she ran up in the last months of her life . . .

    Eoin ,It seems he revels in Ireland’s impending doom.GROW UP!!!

  24. Richard,

    Morgan Kelly writes for the Iirsh times… that article you quoted was a repost of May 2009 Article he wrote… go check if you dont believe me…

    The Irish Times is a Fine Gael mouthpiece…

    He recycled an old article as pleased as punch with himself. When you find the old article I look forward to your apoligies…

    No doubt he’ll print it again next year.

  25. eoin

    yes i have noticed that richard seems to be baiting you on this issue

    i take no pleasure in the situation that the irish people find themselves in, they have been conned big time and their govt has let them down

    of course Ireland will survive. i hope they pluck up the courage to force the bondholders to share their pain

  26. GROW UP!!! yourself. And stop shouting. 8-)

  27. Eoin Clarke

    The article was The Irish Times – Monday, November 8, 2010

    I didn’t even give you the worse of his predictions by the way.

    For the record i don’t give a fig about Ireland,or the EU,i care about the UK,we need Ireland bailed out as do the Germans for our own well being,simple as that.

  28. Richard,

    Yes he published on the 8/11/10

    but he also published in May… I will post it for you one second…

    He posts impending doom every month or so..

    I attach a Feb 2009 in the meantime while I hunt down the repost for you..

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0217/1224241278003.html

  29. amber

    yes i been reading quite a bit about china’s enthusiasm for European debt

    it reminds me of the old adage “beware of Greeks bearing gifts” or was it Romans, Romans would be more apt

  30. @Éoin…..Look Éoin, I know we don’t always see eye to eye, but if push comes to shove on Ireland’s finances, I can let you have a couple of grand. :-)

  31. richard

    you are a banker are you not?

  32. C 42/ L 37/ LD 11

  33. ken lol,

    We see eye to eye on lots of things – just not politics… :) :) :)

    Richard,

    Let’s just wait and see what happens please!

  34. Eoin Clarke

    One of the great things about matters like these is that time tells all. If you continue to post here, I will have the pleasure of telling you I told you so.

    You wrote this,to me a week ago!!

    If you can’t take the heat,get out of ………

    Amber-who rattled your cage?

  35. Gosh who have though that Irish financial policy could generate such a heated debate….

    If we could pipe the heat directly into the Irish economy the Irish would be able to make a piece of toast and put the cheese their government’s given then on it….I don’t know whtether it’ll run to melting the cheese. Irish cheddar is notoriously hard…..

    The simplest thing for the Irish government to do is to refuse to stand behind the reckless Irish banks and let them go the way of Lehman…..

    Once their bondholders get the wind-up the Irish goverment would be drowned in Euro from Germany and France….for it might tempt others into a similar policy….

    As that might finally mean the bankers would pay for the mess the rest of us have been saddled with by their so called expertise….they won’t let it happen…

    Mind you who told us for the last quarter century that they knew just what they were doing?

    And who apparently are still telling us the same thing?
    .
    It might be comic if it weren’t so unbelievable.

    The irony is that they honestly expect us to believe their arrant nonsense.

    The tragedy is we probably will.

  36. Looks like the, ‘ Wonder of Woolas ‘ tonight, good numbers for the Blues. :-)

  37. Richard,

    I am not in the business of generating heat. Thus, avoiding the need to get out of any fire.

    Ireland will not call in the IMF/ECB- you’ll see.

  38. john murphy

    another good post

    spot on

  39. @Richard,

    Word to the wise – although I suspect there is no small wisdom in your views, the way you present them appears very cavalier and heartless. Almost as if the pleasure of being ‘right’ outweigh the considerable personal hardships that the Irish population would face in the event of a financial collapse. The occasional “unfortunately”, “regrettably” or “I’m afraid to say” would render your posts far more palatable to other contributors.

  40. @ Richard

    Amber-who rattled your cage?
    ————————————
    You did. If you post on an open forum, you take the replies you get. And I, doing the same, will simply have to live with your charmless responses. 8-)

  41. Richard,

    I enjoy your daily update. And I enjoy you posting. I guess when it comes to your country going up in smoke, it would ne near nigh impossible not to care deeply. I am not fan of ROI economics but they are my countrymen so I give them a by-ball.

    I apoligise, and I am sorry, if me fears for them transcended into my posts to you. :)

    No hard feelings? :)

  42. Eoin Clarke

    No problem mate,really!

    I am not anti-Irish i am pro-English(British),i am scared to death of the consequences for the Uk & the Eurozone,global economic recovery if this isn’t sorted out soon.

    We have a different opinion,which is what it is all about,dull world if we all agreed.

    Anyway feel free to argue with me,by the way i have posted here on & off for years.

  43. RiN

    “you insult me sir!
    “i am yellow through and through, with some orange and green tinges”

    Oops. I apologise for the appalling smear.

  44. Thanks for the information about the Woolas leaflets, Roger Mexcio. But I doubt whether many of the people responding to the poll on Woolas had looked them up!

    The discussion on universities and InterLibraryLoans is interesting and important.

    1. When I did my M.Sc., we were taught about organizational lifecycles. Yes, universities show all the symptoms of over-maturity, e.g. bureaucracy, ineffiency and bullying their environment, including their political environment, instead of providing an efficient service. Snitching copyight privileges from students who have usually paid to study is a good example.

    2. There are important issues about the availability of information to the public, including researchers outside universities

    But 3. We shouldn’t be selling our intellectual seedcorn for the the short-term interests of universities and the government. For the UK to be prosperous, it must invest in its human capital. Government and business want something for nothing: they want the results of university study but they want students to pay. Well, the Government should pay because they need the graduates. Let’s not mess about talking about cuts: students should get grants like they did in the 1960s and 1970s.

    A more important, related point. I do not believe that the economic crisis is due to the banks and financial mismanagement. I believe that a fundmental cause of the economic crisis is that the financial system has not adjusted to the information revolution. Bankers and economists try to treat information as a scarce resource like psychical goods, both natural and manufactured, whereas actually information can be replicated effectively free. This misunderstanding of information leads to gross intrusion into human freedom and dignity by unnecessarily access to information and by appropriation of a tiny elite of the products of thought – with the result that much is not made available at all. The InterLibraryLoan system and universities taking students’ royalities, which never happened in the past, are very good examples of this problem. Another result is the banking crisis because money unbacked by physical assets can be misappropriated and vanish.

    What is happening is actually a repeat of the Industrial Revolution, when it became cheaper to supply physical effort by machine than by humanpower (or animal power). This cause huge social problems and international problems – the American and French Revolutions – which are perhaps parralled by the massive international reallocation of money, in which Europe and the UK are the big loser, happening at present.

    Rather a long way from people’s reactions to Phil Woolas, though – but also rather more important.

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