Back in August there was a YouGov poll showing that 30% of people thought that Dr David Kelly was murdered. Following the publication of the post-mortem this week we asked if people thought it was right to release the post-mortem report (58% did) and repeated the same question as we asked in August on how people thought David Kelly died. The proportion of people thinking he was murdered has halved to 14%, the proportion thinking he committed suicide has gone from 32% to 52%. Just over a third said don’t know.


301 Responses to “14% still think David Kelly was murdered”

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  1. I am assuming that benefits will continue to be cut to the point that “people will always be better of in work than on benefits”… thus obviating any need for employers to pay a living wage.

  2. Howard,

    Tables are not up yet on YG. when they are I’ll post them to you…

  3. @BILLY BOB
    Every left wing academic in the country can come onto the main opposition party (The BBC) and proclaim the hideous cruelty of the vile wicked Tories. However, £26,000 Pa housing benefit is ENOUGH. If you were getting £18,000 Pa, you still will get it. If you were getting £7000 Pa, you still will get it. However, if you were getting £50,000 Pa you wont get it. Nor should you.

  4. Have you found them then Old Nat?

    I’m still in the dark. I don’t know what the referendum is that Matt cites.

    Both your countries appear to need (want) a left leaning independence. I would cast you both off now, but we English are not allowed a poll on that it seems.

    A question, ‘do you agree that Scotland should have its independence if it wants it’ has never been put to us.

  5. @P Brown

    I was trying to show that the cap had a different effect as the property size increased not that 32 was a large or small number. I’ve just looked again and found a 4-bed for £400pw in Archway. Preferable to Cally Rd?

  6. Is there any evidence that rents have been driven up by the availablity of HB etc to tenants?

    If not, then claims that rents will come down once the HB cap and other changes are in place are ill-founded, surely?

  7. Eoin
    Thanks everso

  8. @ Roland Haines

    And you are entitled to disagree with me as I honestly disgree with you….I dn’t stant with loony left wing theolgians but rather dear old Oliver Goldsmith to whose wisdom Secretary Gove would attest:

    ‘Ill fares the land, to hastening ills a prey,
    where wealth accumulates and men decay….’
    The Deserted Village 1770

    I’ll stand with the poet….he’s an Irishman after all!

  9. I think I have found a viable solution to our HB dilemma…

    shouldn’t there be a cap on Landlords charging 20k p.a. to rent?

    Seems much more preferable way forward, afterall the poor blighter renting it did not ask to be bled dry..

  10. @BILLY BOB
    Do you work for less than a living wage BB ?

  11. Hooded Man:

    Believe me, it is commonplace in London to pay 50% of gross income as rent.

  12. Aleksandar,

    That’s a real rarity for Archway, I imagine it will be gone very quickly and the Landlord will be able to choose exactly what tenants he wants – i.e. not those claiming benefits. Provided it exists at all, of course (please excuse cynicism and bitterness from years of flat hunting in London)

  13. Howard

    The UN Convention allows peoples the right to “self-determination” – not the right to determine the situation of others.

    If you want to have a referendum, or a political decision to have self-determination for England then campaign and vote for it. That’s what those in Scotland who want independence have done.

    It’s a bit pathetic to want a constitutional outcome, but be too lazy to do anything about it.

  14. Howard
    Left-leaning independance?
    Where do you gain the slightest evidence for your assertion about Scotland and Wales?

  15. Barney 28% of Scottish Labour Voters back Independance for Scotland :) (YG)

  16. @Roland Haines

    My answer to you… and Hooded Man, would be that you are seriously out of touch if you think that spending more than 50% of income on rent alone is a rare circumstance.

  17. Aleksandar,

    Just seen the property you mentioned. That one (and another one listed that is almost next door) are on an estate that has an absolutely dreadful reputation – I’d think twice about living there and I’ve lived in some fairly unsavoury parts of London in my time.

  18. Eoin
    28%? So a clear majority then

  19. Going dark now, back tomorrow.

    Looking forward to reading some great posts and ripostes first thing.

  20. @Mike N

    The HB rate still paid on old tenancies is 90% of the LHA rate paid on new claims. The average rent paid by people not on benefits in the private rented sector is 90% of the LHA rate.
    Most landlords have been trying to get their tenants off the old HB onto the new higher LHA. That should tell you something. Equalising the payments at the lower level will lower these rents which have been artificially raised. The real market rent is that paid by the larger non-benefit population and that is around 10% lower. IMHO this will lead to downward pressure as the LHA support falls.
    The important thing about cuts in housing benefit is that if the rent falls with them then the cut is to the landlord and not the tenant. I wonder if the IFS factored that into its model.

  21. Barney,

    It is a large enough % for an aspiring Labour politician to take some account of, and be a bit nicer about. IF you wanna win a marginal you have to try and meet some of this stuff constructively.

  22. Barney
    I specifically wrote of ‘independence’ and not ‘independance’.

    As my senses recover, I gain the impression from the recent (but I await Eoin’s generosity to know how recent) Welsh poll in which welsh labour and PC have considerable gains. I thought the same was true in Scotland with SNP and Lab. I don’t understand why Scots left leaners fail to support independence (note the e) but I suspect it will have something to do with the ambition of Labour activists. We recently had a government of our country (that’s England) stuffed with these strangers to our English culture.

    As an LD, I long for these people to assert themselves, but we English are never polled on the subject,which was my point and thus hopefully (AW) on toipic

  23. Old Nat
    I believe that an English pol,l in which hopefully it would be revealed that voters agree with my assertion, would be followed by your own decision, realising that you are not wanted.

  24. I don’t see why a family with three children should expect to be housed in a four bedroomed house in the first place. For social housing, shared bedrooms are common, and the lounge is considered to be one of the “living rooms” (ie rooms people can sleep in).

    In terms of comparisons between those receiving HB and those not, there are many, many families of average means whose children sleep two to a room. I see nothing wrong with that.

    One of the main problems with HB is that above a certain number of bedrooms, the only available houses are mansions. People don’t build 5 bed houses for the hoi-polloi (unless it’s social housing in the first place). They build lovely great big houses with massive kitchens and big gardens in nice parts of town.

    I can remember dealing with a single-parent father in Waltham Forest, who had seven children by two different mothers (a wierd inverse of the norm I know). They all lived in a beautiful Victorian villa overlooking Chingford golf course (a few minutes walk from ancient woodland, and just about the primest spot in NE London). Meanwhile I lived in a two bed flat (with a flatmate) about 5 minutes walk away.

    The guy was a scumbag. A drunk, drug using petty criminal whose children were all on the CP register at one time or another (and of course the older ones became scumbags in their own right). Unfortunately because he was “priority housing need” and “needed” a large property he was put up in the sort of house that would normally be occupied by some US banker on a 2 year secondment to the London branch.

    We (the child protection officers) would dearly have loved to have dumped him out into a 4 bed council house in Leyton, and made his kids sleep two to a room, but apparently that’s evil and heartless.

  25. Billy Bob,

    It’s 60% of *net* income. I admit I am ‘out of touch’ if there are lots of examples of working families, in receipt of no benefits, as per P Browns family, spending 60% of their net income on rent to live in Caledonian Road.

  26. @Aleksandar

    That’s an… Interesting claim. Currently, LHA rates are *defined* at the median of local rents. For your claim to be correct, it would have to mean that either a huge proportion of private rents go to those on housing benefit. Or there are a small number of extreme price gougers.

    I also note that the London Councils survey of private landlords found that 60% of them had no intention of lowering their rents. Even when the LHA is lowered to the 30% percentile of rents rather than the median average.

    I see problematic times ahead in London when the LHA rate adjustment takes place. A huge spike in Council budgets as they are forced to put evicted tenants into B&Bs. Or worse, if they don’t, and we see thousands put out on the streets.

  27. @BILLY BOB
    I made no comment whatever regarding % of salary paid in rent. But whatever the figure is, a cap of £26000 PA on housing allowance is enough for the tax payer to stand. What makes you think that everybody and their dog is entitled to a perfect lifestyle? One has to work like buggery for that and then you probably wont make it.

  28. NeilA,

    LHA does actually pay on the assumption that teenagers up to 16 share rooms (2 to a room) provided they are not of opposite sex.

    However, the question I was posing was relating to people already occupying a 4 bed property (not unlikely). My hypothetical Cally Road family would probably be eligible to be paid the 3 bed Inner North London rate of LHA, which stands at £435/wk, a few quid under the assumption I had made as to what they would already be paying. However, they would be screwed by the £400 cap.

  29. Howard,

    You have hit one of the nails on the head…. It is Red ambition to thrive on the green seats of London, that has the Scottish Labour Party activists a ‘wee’ bit more hostile to independance than their ordinary voters.

    If I was a Scot, and allowed to vote in a independance poll, I am fairly sure I would vote against independance. But equally, I’d vote for a United States of Europe in the morning. I do not want Scotland to be subjugated by England, and thus I think a step forward (European federation) is better than a step backwards (Scottish Independance). SNP should count is as a blessing that King William/Billy got rid of one barrier to a United States of Europe… it is up to everyone else in the Uk to make sure we get rid of the next barrier :)

  30. @BILLY BOB
    As a PS I would say that you are the one who is seriously out of touch. If you think this country can afford the hemorrhaging of money on unchecked social issues such as this, you are in a distinct minority.

  31. @P Brown,

    So your answer is simple, really. They move to a two bed, and their three kids share the second bedroom and lounge between them. Or the kids have the bedrooms and the parents sleep in the lounge. If that sounds stark, let me tell you that there are thousands of families not in receipt of housing benefit who live in arrangements like that. And it’s their taxes which pay for their neighbours’ HB.

    That’s where the fairness element comes in. Is it fair that we expect those on HB to enjoy better housing arrangements than those who aren’t?

  32. Neil A,

    Yes, it might work provided the rooms were of a sufficient size to satisfy the Housing Act and provided they could find a landlord that was willing to accept both LHA tenants and such a crowded house.

    However – surely that’s a very high price to pay if they were out of work for just a couple of months? What’s the argument against, say, putting a 3 month delay in before the benefit cap kicks in?

  33. @Jay Blanc

    The claims are made by the govt but which part in particular do you ….doubt. I will get back to you later,off out.

  34. Howard

    “you are not wanted”

    You don’t get rid of me from this blog that easily!

    Barney

    You have regularly posted here that only tiny numbers want independence in Scotland. A third of the population (including more than a quarter of your own party) isn’t tiny!

    As a historian, you will know that that is roughly the same proportion of the population that wanted independence in Colonial America, in Slovakia, and elsewhere. The critical issue is not the third who passionately want it (including me), or the third who are passionately against it (including you), but the third who aren’t passionate about it one way or the other, but may go with it if politicians don’t include their preferred middle option.

    If I was a Brit, I’d be pushing for Devo Max for Scotland to avoid Independence happening. If I were a Brit politician from Scotland, though, I probably wouldn’t. As Eoin notes, I’d probably be too keen to park my posterior on a green bench in London.

  35. Jon cruddas has penned an article for the New Statesman critiqueing what we have come to call the ‘deserving poor’ among other topics. It is historically weak, but conceptually strong, and very well written. Worth a read for any red…

    h ttp://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2010/11/labour-poor-society-social

  36. @NEIL A
    Please have a care when you make hard faced remarks based on real life and common sense. I for one am not able to consider two brothers bunking up together. Perhaps the dorms of privilege infested Sandhurst would be a bit tough for South London renters. My daughter lives 190 miles away from me in East Yorkshire, I think the Tories should provide me with a Mercedes Benz S class on the tax payer for such a long journey.

  37. Old Nat
    Firstly, I agree with your earlier comment to Howard
    Secondly, I have never, I hope, claimed support for independence was tiny. I would be just as incensed if this view was the accepted truth as the opposite. I am trying to make sure there is an informed view not an ignorant one of any kind and I have also pointed out that the most dangerous nationalism in the Uk is english nationalism.
    The personalised nastiness whether from you or Howard is taken as a given.
    I do believe that H’s comments again underline Labour’s huge potential advantage as, it would seem the last UK party
    Anyway, off to conference

  38. Barney

    “personalised nastiness”

    Huh?

    “I have also pointed out that the most dangerous nationalism in the Uk is english nationalism.”

    I’d suggest that the most dangerous kind is British Nationalism – Iraq, WMD, etc etc.

  39. Old Nat
    This is an extraordinary exchange. Of course I want you to contribute, but i suddenly detect in your amazing point about our not being able to determine what you decide, a sudden objection to the English holding a poll about whether you ought to be able to secede if that is what you wish. Re-read my post and you will see it was this, about which I complained.

    I am astonished at your reaction but please re-read my suggested wording for an English polling question.

    We have never been given this opportunity.

  40. Oldnat – “If I was a Brit, I’d be pushing for Devo Max for Scotland to avoid Independence happening.”

    Why wouldn’t you as a Brit want to support Scottish independence? There is a fine argument that it’s better to have a happy neighbour than than resentful tenant. ;)

  41. Howard – there have actually been several polls of English attitudes towards Scottish independence (they tend to support it). I’m busy at the moment, but have a google for them and they should pop up. From memory I think English people were pretty supportive

  42. Howard

    I’m surprised that you are surprised! :-)

    (Should have put a smiley after my last comment to you, but I thought that it was a joke was obvious.)

    The core point remains the same, however. For better or worse, we are part of the same state. If you want to change the constitutional settlement for your bit of it, you have to do something about it, or the politicians will ignore you.

    The only reason that the other parts of GB got referendums was the political pressure of the SNP/PC taking seats off the UK parties. No one gave us a say because they were being nice to us!

  43. AW
    I’ll do the same, to save you possibly, -i have been away for some years and may have mised them.

  44. Anthony

    What an interesting supposition lying behind your comment!

    Clearly you assume that a Brit must come from outwith Scotland – else your comment makes no sense.

    But Barney is a Brit, for example, and is just as entitled to his stance as I am.

    My point was the simple one that the Brits (ie those who want to preserve the UK state in some format or other) should logically align themselves with the constitutional settlement which polling suggests would command majority support in Scotland – ie something like Devo Max.

  45. I thought the current devolution arrangements were (at the time) intended to command majority support in Scotland and preserve the Union?

    Surely the nats just want to keep pushing the goalposts further and further apart until they can’t miss?

  46. Cruddas’s article….this stood out

    “In London, cuts in welfare and housing benefit will lead to a forced migration of the poor into the most deprived areas”

    Those “deprived areas” would be where the middle class working families are able to live through recognition and acceptance of their economic circumstances.

    As this forum rightly neither expects nor requests any revelation of personal circumstances, I ask this only rhetorically – “at any point has any poster and their family who are in work, paid over £21k per annum in either rent/mortgage for their home?”

    We may not be representative of the UK at large and possibly there are only some of us who have lived in London for any time but I suspect the answer is a resounding no all round.

  47. Just Googled this;
    A poll, carried out for The Sunday Telegraph, found more 68 per cent of English people want their own parliament, while 59 per cent back Scottish independence.
    Evening Standard, 26.11.06

    @ROLAND -“What makes you think that everybody and their dog is entitled to a perfect lifestyle? One has to work like buggery for that and then you probably wont make it.”
    Uh? Roland, naive? Who’d have thought it?
    In the real world, I think you’ll find a lot of rich people inherited it.

  48. I am remiss -ther was one in 2006 see 9usual in front)

    telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1535193/Britain-wants-UK-break-up-poll-shows.html

    I was surprised at the ‘all three’ reponse’ -i would have added a fourth, Cornwall.

    You two scots for different rewasons seem to be ‘frit’ as Lady T would say.

  49. sorry about typos usual mistake

  50. So as it happens it is a small minoity of the Labour activists in Scotland that don’t want independance? lol How things tun on a sixpence!

    oldNat, if you lot go- we are following… even our Presbys would support abandoning ship (HMS Britannia of course)

    we have had this dispute before but Scotland is technically not Britain… (at least it did not used to be). scotland is part of Great Britain… a point which always makes me chuckle.. Was Britain not great Before Scotland joined lol :P ?

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