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	<title>Comments on: Who are the people who voted BNP last week?</title>
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	<link>http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2172</link>
	<description>Independent Survey and Polling News</description>
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		<title>By: Amateur psephology and the rise of the far-right &#171; Left Luggage</title>
		<link>http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2172/comment-page-3#comment-583647</link>
		<dc:creator>Amateur psephology and the rise of the far-right &#171; Left Luggage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 16:51:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/?p=2172#comment-583647</guid>
		<description>[...] argument that is being put is that BNP are gaining support from at the expense of the Tories, not Labour. Evidence cited [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] argument that is being put is that BNP are gaining support from at the expense of the Tories, not Labour. Evidence cited [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Fido</title>
		<link>http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2172/comment-page-3#comment-583630</link>
		<dc:creator>Fido</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 08:21:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/?p=2172#comment-583630</guid>
		<description>Jim Jam - yes yes youre right i shouldnt have assumed that i&#039;ll blame it on trying to get post finished before shift started!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim Jam &#8211; yes yes youre right i shouldnt have assumed that i&#8217;ll blame it on trying to get post finished before shift started!</p>
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		<title>By: Promsan</title>
		<link>http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2172/comment-page-3#comment-583592</link>
		<dc:creator>Promsan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:17:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/?p=2172#comment-583592</guid>
		<description>Whatever has been said (and I haven&#039;t bothered to read it since my last post), I can&#039;t see how you will ever get useful or reliable information on the BNP.
They are an issue that the establishment simply don&#039;t understand, and as long as any association with them is treated with the irrational cult-like vitriol and pariah/taboo status that it is: I don&#039;t see how you will ever get honest answers about who votes for them and why; as long as you never get honest questions about them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whatever has been said (and I haven&#8217;t bothered to read it since my last post), I can&#8217;t see how you will ever get useful or reliable information on the BNP.<br />
They are an issue that the establishment simply don&#8217;t understand, and as long as any association with them is treated with the irrational cult-like vitriol and pariah/taboo status that it is: I don&#8217;t see how you will ever get honest answers about who votes for them and why; as long as you never get honest questions about them.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Jam</title>
		<link>http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2172/comment-page-3#comment-583548</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Jam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:48:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/?p=2172#comment-583548</guid>
		<description>Fido - you may not get this as the thread is old but my remarks about religion were in response to the notion that a good christian family could be racist from Mickey.
I feel you are confusing prejudice with racism and would ask you to address why having &#039;Black&#039; candidiates in seats with mainly white Electorates (e.g. Ashok Kumar in Lanbaurgh/South Middlesbrough) only cost labour around 1% off the average swing in 1997.
Of course the issues of poor people of whatever race need to be addressed.
Of course I want to see and end to prejudice as well but this will take centuries and I will settle for now for conscious racism to be in decline and marginal.
I agree withy you aboiut the UAF but please don&#039;t assume that I am middle class - I make no assumptions about other posters.
We will just have to disagree about votes by mainly young people in TV shows</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fido &#8211; you may not get this as the thread is old but my remarks about religion were in response to the notion that a good christian family could be racist from Mickey.<br />
I feel you are confusing prejudice with racism and would ask you to address why having &#8216;Black&#8217; candidiates in seats with mainly white Electorates (e.g. Ashok Kumar in Lanbaurgh/South Middlesbrough) only cost labour around 1% off the average swing in 1997.<br />
Of course the issues of poor people of whatever race need to be addressed.<br />
Of course I want to see and end to prejudice as well but this will take centuries and I will settle for now for conscious racism to be in decline and marginal.<br />
I agree withy you aboiut the UAF but please don&#8217;t assume that I am middle class &#8211; I make no assumptions about other posters.<br />
We will just have to disagree about votes by mainly young people in TV shows</p>
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		<title>By: Fido</title>
		<link>http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2172/comment-page-3#comment-583502</link>
		<dc:creator>Fido</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 06:24:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/?p=2172#comment-583502</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s the utter naivety of Jim Jam who seems to live in some kind of multiracial paradise that needs to be addressed if we&#039;re to stop the BNP.
As Mickey (and I&#039;m sure anyone who has any kind of day to day contact with working class England) knows the vast majority of such people are undeniably proud of white England and amongst their own will have views in respect of non-white Britain far from those of the middle class media and broadly in line of what the BNP are saying. But as Mickey said whilst the BNP has connotations of fascism and is beset by the kind of characters with their extremely chequered pasts that are currently found in its ranks they would never vote for it. In fact amongst the working class people I meet every day in my community job across West Yorkshire you&#039;d find it hard to find many people who do conform in any way to those surveyed who give the enlightened answers about race connoted in that survey at the top of this thread. As MIckey says what people give as answers to pollsters and what they really think amongst their own on such issues are two completely different things. And this isnt just confined to Yorkshire etc as part of my family come from that most ignored sector of society the usually hidden working class sector of the South East and the views of similar people I meet when visiting are exactly the same.
And i&#039;m flabbergasted that black people winning pop idol has been mentioned hasnt JImJam heard of minstrelsy which I believe some of the KKK were quite keen on.
As Mickey says we&#039;re not saying that the white working-class are &quot;fascists&quot; and a large proportion would never admit to racism just that their views are broadly supportive of what they see as the &quot;indigenous white majority&quot; and theyd rather live amongst those they perceive as ethnically similar. 
That&#039;s why its vital that the other parties step out from their middle class cocoon and realise just how downtrodden and ignored the whire working and lower middle class think they are. And while theyre at it distance themselves from the UAF who are surely the biggest recruiting device that the BNP could wish for.
ie could you imagine anything more likely to turn off white working-class voters than what theyd perceive as some scrawny middle class students trying to tell them how to vote if anything its more likely to make them think &quot;if these people are against them maybe the BNP have a point...&quot;

PS although I don&#039;t  know why Jim Jam went off on a tangent at the end of his post about secularism - but I think the gist of it was  pretty ill thought out eg &quot;no-one has been killed by secularism in the name of God&quot; probably true but a few millions have been killed by secularism in the name of Stalin, Hitler (who in his writings/speeches defined himself as an atheist with occasional &quot;pretend&quot; leanings to a pre-Christian paganism). Mao. Lenin etc etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s the utter naivety of Jim Jam who seems to live in some kind of multiracial paradise that needs to be addressed if we&#8217;re to stop the BNP.<br />
As Mickey (and I&#8217;m sure anyone who has any kind of day to day contact with working class England) knows the vast majority of such people are undeniably proud of white England and amongst their own will have views in respect of non-white Britain far from those of the middle class media and broadly in line of what the BNP are saying. But as Mickey said whilst the BNP has connotations of fascism and is beset by the kind of characters with their extremely chequered pasts that are currently found in its ranks they would never vote for it. In fact amongst the working class people I meet every day in my community job across West Yorkshire you&#8217;d find it hard to find many people who do conform in any way to those surveyed who give the enlightened answers about race connoted in that survey at the top of this thread. As MIckey says what people give as answers to pollsters and what they really think amongst their own on such issues are two completely different things. And this isnt just confined to Yorkshire etc as part of my family come from that most ignored sector of society the usually hidden working class sector of the South East and the views of similar people I meet when visiting are exactly the same.<br />
And i&#8217;m flabbergasted that black people winning pop idol has been mentioned hasnt JImJam heard of minstrelsy which I believe some of the KKK were quite keen on.<br />
As Mickey says we&#8217;re not saying that the white working-class are &#8220;fascists&#8221; and a large proportion would never admit to racism just that their views are broadly supportive of what they see as the &#8220;indigenous white majority&#8221; and theyd rather live amongst those they perceive as ethnically similar.<br />
That&#8217;s why its vital that the other parties step out from their middle class cocoon and realise just how downtrodden and ignored the whire working and lower middle class think they are. And while theyre at it distance themselves from the UAF who are surely the biggest recruiting device that the BNP could wish for.<br />
ie could you imagine anything more likely to turn off white working-class voters than what theyd perceive as some scrawny middle class students trying to tell them how to vote if anything its more likely to make them think &#8220;if these people are against them maybe the BNP have a point&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>PS although I don&#8217;t  know why Jim Jam went off on a tangent at the end of his post about secularism &#8211; but I think the gist of it was  pretty ill thought out eg &#8220;no-one has been killed by secularism in the name of God&#8221; probably true but a few millions have been killed by secularism in the name of Stalin, Hitler (who in his writings/speeches defined himself as an atheist with occasional &#8220;pretend&#8221; leanings to a pre-Christian paganism). Mao. Lenin etc etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Jam</title>
		<link>http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2172/comment-page-3#comment-583478</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Jam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:50:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/?p=2172#comment-583478</guid>
		<description>Mickey,
Scroll up and see the bit I posted on the 1997 Election - few people willl vote differently because the candidate is &#039;Black&#039; or Gay.
Plus another stat ,the UK has more mixed race marriages than any other country.
Also, there is prejudice right through society but racism is, in my view, not widespread.
Hitler was a Christian by the way and the Dutch Reform Church (SA branch) found some way to back apartheid.
My experience is that secular people have less prejudice than so called &#039;good christian families&#039;.
Securalist have never killed anyone in the name of God!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mickey,<br />
Scroll up and see the bit I posted on the 1997 Election &#8211; few people willl vote differently because the candidate is &#8216;Black&#8217; or Gay.<br />
Plus another stat ,the UK has more mixed race marriages than any other country.<br />
Also, there is prejudice right through society but racism is, in my view, not widespread.<br />
Hitler was a Christian by the way and the Dutch Reform Church (SA branch) found some way to back apartheid.<br />
My experience is that secular people have less prejudice than so called &#8216;good christian families&#8217;.<br />
Securalist have never killed anyone in the name of God!</p>
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		<title>By: Mickey</title>
		<link>http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2172/comment-page-3#comment-583477</link>
		<dc:creator>Mickey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:07:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/?p=2172#comment-583477</guid>
		<description>First of all, may I say that this has been a very interesting read through the article itself, and many of the responses posted.

What I would like to focus on though is the concept of Britain no longer suffering widespread racism. 

I am interested in how one might calculate that. Certainly, I dont think non-white contestants winning talent competitions or reallity-tv shows means a great deal. Those people win because they have talent, and because they have a significant minority of people from similar backgrounds voting for them. It would be unusual for the white population of britain to unite and vote for the one remaining white contestant just because they were the one remaining white contestant I feel, whereas people from other social groups and ethnic minorities would arguably be more likely to do so. Nevertheless, I do not think this can give us much of an idea of whether or not Britain is racist.

Certainly, when I often talk to friends from back home in the Midlands, and others from further afield in the north of England, I do get the impression that there is an overwhelming sense of inherrant racism in these areas. And not just in more rural areas either. Indeed I would say that there are very few white people in certain areas of the midlands and the north who could not be easily engaged in racist-type conversations or anti-immigrant conversations.

The difference I think is that most of these people would still never vote for the BNP, solely because of the stigma attached to it. They would also steer well clear of such conversations in company which they do not know well enough to trust with their views. With people they know, they will say things like, &quot;I&#039;m not racist...but...&quot;, when clearly the words that follow are inherrantly racist. 

My parents, I am sad to say, are exactly like this, as are most of my family members. They are a good Christian family, who would never consider themselves to be racist, and would go to great lengths to ensure that they would not be badged as such, but these kind of conversations give the game away.

Another friend of mine is planning to emigrate to Spain, in his own words &quot;to escape all the immigrants who steal our jobs&quot;. Yet he would also state that he was not racist, and would not vote for the BNP.

My point then is that the issues of racism and support for the BNP, whilst of course linked, are not mutally exclusive, and that there is a widespread racism in large parts of the UK, both in rural areas and in cosmopilitan areas. No poll will show this, as a majority of these people, like my parents, will declare that they are not racist, and would not indicate racist views in a poll as a result. They certainly would not say it in a face-to-face poll. The same goes for homophobia, perhaps even more so, amongst many of these people.

The overwhelming majority of these people do not vote BNP, and would not do so, unless the BNP was to become &quot;more acceptable&quot;. Instead they will vote for one of the big two, if they vote at all, but it is this group of voters that would make a great deal of difference should the views of the BNP become more acceptable in the media, at which point we should expect them to swing.

For my own part, I am happy to say that I live and work in a cosmopilitan inner-city area, working with children often from black caribbean, black african or other ethnic backgrounds, and despite being brought up in a family where there is obvious yet publically hidden racism, am vehemently opposed to such views. I dislike the stance of the BNP immensely, and I worry that it&#039;s numbers will continue to grow as more of these kind of people decide that it has become more acceptable to vote for this party and thus clamber out of the closet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all, may I say that this has been a very interesting read through the article itself, and many of the responses posted.</p>
<p>What I would like to focus on though is the concept of Britain no longer suffering widespread racism. </p>
<p>I am interested in how one might calculate that. Certainly, I dont think non-white contestants winning talent competitions or reallity-tv shows means a great deal. Those people win because they have talent, and because they have a significant minority of people from similar backgrounds voting for them. It would be unusual for the white population of britain to unite and vote for the one remaining white contestant just because they were the one remaining white contestant I feel, whereas people from other social groups and ethnic minorities would arguably be more likely to do so. Nevertheless, I do not think this can give us much of an idea of whether or not Britain is racist.</p>
<p>Certainly, when I often talk to friends from back home in the Midlands, and others from further afield in the north of England, I do get the impression that there is an overwhelming sense of inherrant racism in these areas. And not just in more rural areas either. Indeed I would say that there are very few white people in certain areas of the midlands and the north who could not be easily engaged in racist-type conversations or anti-immigrant conversations.</p>
<p>The difference I think is that most of these people would still never vote for the BNP, solely because of the stigma attached to it. They would also steer well clear of such conversations in company which they do not know well enough to trust with their views. With people they know, they will say things like, &#8220;I&#8217;m not racist&#8230;but&#8230;&#8221;, when clearly the words that follow are inherrantly racist. </p>
<p>My parents, I am sad to say, are exactly like this, as are most of my family members. They are a good Christian family, who would never consider themselves to be racist, and would go to great lengths to ensure that they would not be badged as such, but these kind of conversations give the game away.</p>
<p>Another friend of mine is planning to emigrate to Spain, in his own words &#8220;to escape all the immigrants who steal our jobs&#8221;. Yet he would also state that he was not racist, and would not vote for the BNP.</p>
<p>My point then is that the issues of racism and support for the BNP, whilst of course linked, are not mutally exclusive, and that there is a widespread racism in large parts of the UK, both in rural areas and in cosmopilitan areas. No poll will show this, as a majority of these people, like my parents, will declare that they are not racist, and would not indicate racist views in a poll as a result. They certainly would not say it in a face-to-face poll. The same goes for homophobia, perhaps even more so, amongst many of these people.</p>
<p>The overwhelming majority of these people do not vote BNP, and would not do so, unless the BNP was to become &#8220;more acceptable&#8221;. Instead they will vote for one of the big two, if they vote at all, but it is this group of voters that would make a great deal of difference should the views of the BNP become more acceptable in the media, at which point we should expect them to swing.</p>
<p>For my own part, I am happy to say that I live and work in a cosmopilitan inner-city area, working with children often from black caribbean, black african or other ethnic backgrounds, and despite being brought up in a family where there is obvious yet publically hidden racism, am vehemently opposed to such views. I dislike the stance of the BNP immensely, and I worry that it&#8217;s numbers will continue to grow as more of these kind of people decide that it has become more acceptable to vote for this party and thus clamber out of the closet.</p>
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		<title>By: Neil A</title>
		<link>http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2172/comment-page-3#comment-583474</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:01:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/?p=2172#comment-583474</guid>
		<description>I have no empirical proof of this but I suspect that these days the majority of  &quot;Jewish conspiracy/Holocaust denier&quot; extremists are Muslims rather than old fashioned white racists.  I don&#039;t see much sign of anti-Semitism amongst ordinary white people.  Can you really imagine the British public hating Jerry Springer, Zac Efron, Esther Rantzen etc?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have no empirical proof of this but I suspect that these days the majority of  &#8220;Jewish conspiracy/Holocaust denier&#8221; extremists are Muslims rather than old fashioned white racists.  I don&#8217;t see much sign of anti-Semitism amongst ordinary white people.  Can you really imagine the British public hating Jerry Springer, Zac Efron, Esther Rantzen etc?</p>
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		<title>By: James Ludlow</title>
		<link>http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2172/comment-page-3#comment-583469</link>
		<dc:creator>James Ludlow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:17:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/?p=2172#comment-583469</guid>
		<description>@ Leslie - well, when you put it like that ... though I still think no matter what we do, we&#039;ll always have a loon contingent which believes in any amount of conspiracist nonsense, including Holocaust denial.

More scary, IMO, are the people who know the Holocaust happened but think it was a good thing. There are a worrying number of those types on the fringes of both the left and the right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Leslie &#8211; well, when you put it like that &#8230; though I still think no matter what we do, we&#8217;ll always have a loon contingent which believes in any amount of conspiracist nonsense, including Holocaust denial.</p>
<p>More scary, IMO, are the people who know the Holocaust happened but think it was a good thing. There are a worrying number of those types on the fringes of both the left and the right.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul H-J</title>
		<link>http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2172/comment-page-3#comment-583467</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul H-J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:57:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/?p=2172#comment-583467</guid>
		<description>Leslie,

&quot;early&quot; is a relative rather than an absolute term. 

In general, we have had elections at approx four year intervals for most of the post-war period, the main exceptions being those which were either shorter due to a lack of working majority (1951, 1966, Oct 1974), or longer as the incumbent hung on to the bitter end (1979, 1992 and 1997) - note 1979 was actually 4 yrs and 7 months, but timing was not determined by the PM who had lost a motion of no confidence. 

Had Brown gone to the country in October 2007, just 2 1/2 years into the Parliament,  that would have counted as an &quot;early&quot; election. An election in May / June this year would have been par for the course.

Of course, now that everyone expects Brown to go to the wire (technically 10 June 2010), anything before May would be seen as &quot;early&quot; - but only relative to expectations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leslie,</p>
<p>&#8220;early&#8221; is a relative rather than an absolute term. </p>
<p>In general, we have had elections at approx four year intervals for most of the post-war period, the main exceptions being those which were either shorter due to a lack of working majority (1951, 1966, Oct 1974), or longer as the incumbent hung on to the bitter end (1979, 1992 and 1997) &#8211; note 1979 was actually 4 yrs and 7 months, but timing was not determined by the PM who had lost a motion of no confidence. </p>
<p>Had Brown gone to the country in October 2007, just 2 1/2 years into the Parliament,  that would have counted as an &#8220;early&#8221; election. An election in May / June this year would have been par for the course.</p>
<p>Of course, now that everyone expects Brown to go to the wire (technically 10 June 2010), anything before May would be seen as &#8220;early&#8221; &#8211; but only relative to expectations.</p>
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