North West European Region

2014 Election
2014 Results
1. Theresa Griffin (Labour) 594063 33.9% (+13.5%)
2. Paul Nuttall (UKIP) 481932 27.5% (+11.7%)
3. Jacqueline Foster (Conservative) 351985 20.1% (-5.5%)
4. Afzal Khan (Labour) (297032)
5. Louise Bours (UKIP) (240966)
6. Julie Ward (Labour) (198021)
7. Sajjad Karim (Conservative) (175993)
8. Steven Woolfe (UKIP) (160644)
. (Green) 123075 7% (-0.7%)
. (Liberal Democrat) 105487 6% (-8.3%)
. (BNP) 32826 1.9% (-6.1%)
. (Independence from Europe) 25999 1.5% (n/a)
. (English Democrats) 19522 1.1% (-1.3%)
. (Pirate) 8597 0.5% (n/a)
. (No2EU) 5402 0.3% (-1.1%)
. (Socialist Equality) 5067 0.3% (n/a)
Current sitting MEPs
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Theresa Griffin (Labour) Educated at Lancaster University. Trade union organiser. Former Liverpool councillor. Contested North West European election 1999, 2004, 2009. MEP for North West since 2014
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Paul Nuttall (UKIP) Borm 1976, Liverpool. Educated at Savio High School and Edge Hill University. Former lecturer. Deputy leader of UKIP since 2010. Contested Bootle 2005, 2010, Oldham East and Saddleworth 2011 by-election. MEP for the North West since 2009
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Jacqueline Foster (Conservative) Born 1947, Liverpool. Educated at Prescot Girls Grammar. Aviation consultant and former air hostess. Contested Newham South 1992, Peterborough 1997. MEP for the North West 1999-2004 and since 2009
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Afzal Khan (Labour) Born 1960, Pakistan. Solicitor. Manchester councillor since 2000. MEP for North West since 2014. Awarded the CBE for services to race relations.
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Louise Bours (UKIP) Educated at Mountview Conservatoire for the Performing Arts. Singer and actor. Former Congleton councillor. Contested Cheshire Police Commissioner election 2012. MEP for North West since 2014
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Julie Ward (Labour) Born 1957, Ripon. Educated at Newcastle University. Ran a social enterprise providing services for people with mental health problems. MEP for North West since 2014
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Sajjad Karim (Conservative) Born 1970, Blackburn. Solicitor. Pendle councillor 1994-2001 for the Liberal Democrats. MEP for the North West since 2004.. Originally elected as a Liberal Democrat, he defected to the Conservatives in 2007.
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Steven Woolfe (UKIP) Educated at Aberystwyth University. Barrister. Contested City and East 2012 London Assembly election, Greater Manchester Police Commissioner election 2012. MEP for North West since 2014

Full candidates for the 2014 European election are here.

2009 Election
2009 Results
1. Robert Atkins (Conservative) 423174 25.6% (+1.5%)
2. Arlene McCarthy (Labour) 336831 20.4% (-6.9%)
3. Paul Nuttall (UKIP) 261740 15.8% (+3.7%)
4. Chris Davies (Liberal Democrat) 235639 14.3% (-1.6%)
5. Saj Karim (Conservative) (211587)
6. Brian Simpson (Labour) (168416)
7. Jacqueline Foster (Conservative) (141058)
8. Nick Griffin (BNP) 132194 8% (+1.6%)
. (Green) 127133 7.7% (+2.1%)
. (English Democrats) 40027 2.4% (+0.8%)
. (Socialist Labour) 26224 1.6% (n/a)
. (Christian) 25999 1.6% (n/a)
. (No2EU) 23580 1.4% (n/a)
. (Jury Team) 8783 0.5% (n/a)
. (Libertas) 6980 0.4% (n/a)
. Francis Apaloo (Independent) 3621 0.2% (n/a)
Current sitting MEPs
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Robert Atkins (Conservative) Born 1946, London. Educated at Highgate School. Haringey councillor 1968-1977. MP for Preston North 1979-1983, South Ribble from 1983-1997. Knighted in 1997. MEP for North West England since 1999. Minister of Transport 1989-1990, Minister of Sport 1990-1992, Minister of State at Northern Ireland Office 1992-1994, Minister of State, Environment 1994-1995.
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Arlene McCarthy (Labour) Born 1960, Belfast. Formerly a European liasion officer for Kirkless council. MEP since 1994.
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Paul Nuttall (UKIP) Borm 1976, Liverpool. Educated at Savio High School and Edge Hill University. Former lecturer. Deputy leader of UKIP since 2010. Contested Bootle 2005, 2010, Oldham East and Saddleworth 2011 by-election. MEP for the North West since 2009
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Chris Davies (Liberal Democrat) Born 1954, Lytham St Annes. Educated at Cheadle Hulme School and Cambridge University. MP for Littleborough and Saddleworth 1995-1997. Contested Oldham East and Saddleworth 1997. MEP for the North West since 1999. Former leader of the Liberal Democrat group in the European Parliament, he stepped down in 2008 after being criticised over a reply to a constituent that accused her of racism. 
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Saj Karim (Conservative) Born 1970, Blackburn. Solicitor. Pendle councillor 1994-2001 for the Liberal Democrats. MEP for North West England since 2004, orginally elected as a Liberal Democrat he defected to the Conservatives in 2007.
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Brian Simpson (Labour) Born 1953, Leigh. Former PE teacher. Former Warrington councillor and Merseyside county councillor. MEP for Cheshire East 1989-1999, MEP for North-West 1999-2004 when he lost his seat. He returned to the European Parliament in 2006 following the resignation of Terry Wynn.
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Jacqueline Foster (Conservative) Born 1947, Liverpool. Educated at Prescot Girls Grammar. Aviation consultant and former air hostess. Contested Newham South 1992, Peterborough 1997. MEP for the North West 1999-2004 and since 2009
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Nick Griffin (BNP) Born 1959, London. Educated at Woodbridge School and Cambridge University. Chairman of the BNP. Former publicity officer and Parliamentary candidate for the National Front before leaving the party in 1989. Joined the BNP in 1995 and edited BNP magazines Spearhead and The Rune. In 1998 he was prosecuted for incitement to racial hatred in reation to an issue of The Rune that denied the holocaust. He was again arrested for incitement to racial hatred in 2004 in relation to a speech he made criticising Islam which was recorded by the BBC, he was subsequently found not guilty at trial. Chairman of the BNP since 1999 he has pursued a strategy of giving the BNP a less overtly racist and extremist image. Contested North West Region 2004 European elections. Contested South Wales West in 2007 Welsh assembly elections. Contested Croydon North-West by-election 1981, Croydon North-West 1983 for the National Front. West Bromwich West by-election 2000, Oldham West & Royton 2001, Keighley 2005, Barking 2010 for the BNP.


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Comments - 314 Responses on “Europe North West”
  1. Is that your percentage prediction for the NW or the UK as a whole.

    I would agree with it being the former but would disagree if it were the latter.

  2. My figures there are my national vote share predictions.

  3. Conservatives to lose third seat, BNP also gone.

    The rise in UKIP support would have to be extraordinary (c.33%) to gain a fourth seat.

    My prediction:
    UKIP 3
    Labour 3
    Conservative 2

  4. Paul Nuttall says he would be “devastated” if UKIP didn’t get 3 MEPs here.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27252513

  5. I’ve now received 6 of the 11 NW Euro Freepost leaflets. I’m not sure Labour’s entire front page being a pic of Ed Miliband and highlighting their Asian candidates inside and on the back is an ideal way to get out the WWC vote. The Green leaflet is quite plush, aesthetically. The Pirate Party has pics of their young overweight lecturers with beards (candidates).

  6. Labour’s London leaflet also has Ed Miliband on the entire front cover.

    Well, you can’t accuse us of hiding our leader can you?

  7. I was amused to hear some lecturer state on the News that local elections would boost turnout in the Euros. He obviously isn’t aware that turnout in some wards in Lpool and Manc has been 10-15% for a decade.

  8. Looking quite heavily into this has kind of disappointed me slightly. Messages from many sources in this campaign have emphasised that because this election uses PR, we can/should vote for who we want, and don’t need to vote tactically – but I don’t think that’s true.

    Looking at the 2009 results, the turnout was ~1.6m, with 8 candidates that’s about 200k votes per seat, yet the tories won 3 seats with 420,000 votes. Obviously you can’t split seats, so it’s not going to be perfect, but this seems further from perfect than it should be. The problem seems to be a large number of small parties and a small number of seats available – are there any comparisons of UK seat distribution as it happened in 2009 with what would have happened if the UK (or at least England) had voted as 1 large region?

    Looking at the predictions posted here the two most popular seem to be:

    UKIP 3
    Labour 3
    Conservative 2

    and

    UKIP 3
    Labour 3
    Conservative 1
    Green / Lib Dem 1

    Which I think I agree with, and the battle for the final seat will be close between the tories, lib dems and greens. In this situation, I feel that I can’t vote for my first choice (Pirate Party), but instead have to vote for my (close) 2nd choice – the Green Party, as they have an actual hope of securing a seat.

    Have I misunderstood something? Or does this not negate the usefulness of PR as a means of expressing your minority preference?

  9. Closed-List D’Hondt with such small seat numbers (worse in NE, Wales and NI) is a bit rubbish as PR systems go.

  10. Lancs Obs I’m feeling very left out. I didn’t get one leaflet in the entire campaign.

  11. To reply, eventually, to mrnameless: NI has Single Transferrable Vote (which would have solved Martin’s problem), because other sytems wouldn’t reliably enough give sensible relations of seats to communities in NI. Of course, it is illogical to have a different system for NI than for the rest of the UK, but there we go.

    Another oddity is that St Lague is used to decide the distribution of seats between regions, while the similar, but slightly less proportional D’Hondt is used to decide the distribution of seats within regions.

    But the details of the relative proportionality of three different systems I have mentioned are trivial, when they are compared to First Past The Post, or even worse Alternative Vote and FPTP in multi-member (like many council elections).

    Cest la vie!

  12. ‘Lancs Obs I’m feeling very left out. I didn’t get one leaflet in the entire campaign.’

    Can’t imagine why. These were freeposts, sent out to everyone by mail.

  13. A bit off-piste, but I watched QT last night and found myself squirming in embarrassment at Louise Bours. When you make Caroline Flint look authoritative, you know you’re having a bad night……..Patrick Flynn was little better on the Clacton QT.

    The only reason I say this, as someone who isn’t entirely hostile to UKIP, is that whilst performance on QT won’t make much difference to public perception, if these individuals gain significant primetime exposure ahead of the election, I think that UKIP could lose some of it’s softer vote in the GE.

    It is still a very significant problem for UKIP, I think, that of their key spokespeople only Farage and Diane James come across with any degree of authority, and Susanne Evans to some extent (although even she had a bit of car crash session on This Week a couple of weeks ago). As for the rest…..it’s far from impressive, and I can’t believe that it won’t do them some damage at some point.

  14. Chris K – they also had that Winston (McKenzie?) guy on Newsnight again. Paul Nuttall seems to perform quite well, but I agree Diane James is streets ahead of most. She even corrected Andrew Neil on a couple of facts, which is rare.

  15. I have come across an article in the “Daily Sport”, of all places, in which UKIP are highlighting the lack of urgency with which the major parties are tackling electoral fraud, specifically in realtion to voter registration. It is a very good point which may have a considerable effect on the outcome of the coming election.

  16. LOL

    What else did you “come across” in the Daily Sport?

    Never guessed you were such a dirty old man Frederic 🙂

  17. Yes, as I was reading in my copy of Readers’ Wives…

  18. Quite amusing that despite his advancing years, Frederic is able to use the internet for psephological discussions, yet still gets his soft porn from traditional newsprint 🙂

    I haven’t glanced into the Daily Sport since I was a hormonal 17 year old, in the innocent pre-net days of 1993.

  19. This may be of interest to HH and others.

    http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/merseyside-second-highest-country-vote-11455856

    It states that 1. Lancashire, 2. Essex, 3. Merseyside are the highest Leave areas on social media, with Surrey & Greater London being the lowest.

    I realise he and others thought I was over doing it by previously stating that the feeling in parts of Merseyside was so hostile to the EU.

    I also realise social media is unrepresentative and tends to be those who are most vocal on subjects and doesn’t mean they’ll all turnout.

    But this is now the fourth piece of evidence re the mood up here. Liverpool may very well still vote Remain by 60:40 of course; but, I certainly wouldn’t be surprised if wards particularly in some of the outer council estates voted Leave.

    The Liverpool Echo had a piece after the ITV debate ‘Did you see our Angela call Boris a liar?’ Even I expected that to result in anti-Boris responses. But all of the 20 on the Echo site were anti-Eagle and even on the Echo News Facebook page the response was 200 comments and 90% were anti-Eagle. Although clearly her shouty finger-pointing performance was part to blame for this.

  20. Interesting.

    Once Knowsley, Sefton, Wirral etc are added to Liverpool, do you think Merseyside will vote Leave overall? Ditto Lancashire.

    No surprise on Greater London but based on the feeling I’m picking up from the eastern side of the county, next to where I live, I think Surrey could easily vote Leave.

  21. I’d imagine Sefton will vote Leave. Wirral may be the most positive for Remain. I don’t know about St Helens.

    Parts of Knowsley and Liverpool could be the most strong for Leave. Overall that points to 50:50 (no that’s not a cop out, that’s how it feels/tots up). I think the L17 area of Liverpool (the Green ward) will be the most pro-Remain in the county.

    Lancs will be Leave from what I’ve heard and seen there, esp Blackpool. Again the most strong for Leave could be the Scouse overspill Labour parts of West Lancs which border Merseyside. Similarly, Winsford in Cheshire.

    DE and OAPs seem to be breaking almost 80:20 for Leave from what I’ve heard (Stronger In are deliberately not even entering 20 of the 30 wards in Lpool as they don’t want to prompt those voters to turnout).

  22. Describing somewhere like Merseyside as “hostile” to the EU is probably the wrong word. It’s more likely to be indifference and lack of enthusiasm rather than positive hostility. Hostile would be a more apt description to use for places like Basildon and Thurrock.

  23. Talking of Surrey (off-topic), I would expect places like Guildford and Mole Valley to vote comfortably for Remain. If they don’t, Remain doesn’t stand a chance.

  24. Andy JS – it surprised me, but those were the comments and not just online.

    The BBC went to Kirkby, Sky has been to Lpool and the Echo and Radio stations have had their own surveys.

    I realise most are only small samples, but the response has surprised most of the media up here.

    As a Labour/Remain Cllr said to me, “We made the mistake of assuming that the anti-EU vote had already gone to UKIP last year and that ‘our’ vote wouldn’t therefore be too much of a problem. It’s proving harder to convince our vote. I fear it might now be too late.”

  25. I was speaking to a Remain campaigner based in Liverpool. According to him the former LD middle class wards are very strong 65% + for remain while the wwc areas are very close

  26. Yes, see my 5.04pm post above.

    I’d expect those 8-10 wards to be 65% for Remain.

    Not sure how they’d have any knowledge of the other 20 wards as they appear not to have leafleted any of them.

    My impression from the Lab Cllr was that they had expected the strongest Labour wards to be 60% Remain but the feedback is they’re not ie only 40-45%.

    Clearly it depends who turns out.

    I suppose it shows how the mood has shifted. A year ago I recall LD Group Leader & LGA Cllr Kemp saying Lpool would be 75% in favour of staying. Perhaps an example of how Cllrs only know their own patches to the extent they don’t even venture into half of a city.

  27. I would guess nearly everywhere in the country with a significant Green presence is likely to vote Remain. An exception would be somewhere like the Chelmsley Wood area where it’s more of a personal vote based on disenchantment with the other parties.

  28. Yes and maybe parts of Bristol which are always anti-Establishment.

  29. Incidentally (and it’s only an anecdote from 2 people before others point that out), re the discussion last month re the political spectrum and shift of the ‘gay vote’ – a colleague at work who happens to be gay was for Remain, but has just declared on Facebook that he and his bf just voted Leave by post after the shooting in the gay nightclub in Florida.

    I recall someone on here saying gay voters were socially liberal until their freedoms were impacted by change.

    Though I realise such events may only reinforce previously held views rather than change many votes. After all, BBC News were talking about another US mass shooting by a gunman and the gun control debate, whereas Sky News online refers to it as their main story and as a terrorist killing over 20 and that the FBI are investigating his “Islamist leanings.”

    I don’t there’s been any UK polls re the ‘gay vote’ in this Referendum? I see Chris Bryant and Crispin Blunt have written Remain & Leave pieces respectively for Pink News.

    Both sides have leafleted Manchester’s Canal Street.

  30. Indeed even Peter Tatchell has changed his position slightly (by being on the side of the West at least):

    “I have long suspected that Islamist extremists would attack the gay community in the West. They have a pathological hated for LGBT people and Jews. This must be a wake-up call to the US, Britain and other Western countries and gay venues in Britain should certainly strengthen their security.”

    [Although he then goes on to call Marco Rubio’s condemnation of the attack hypocritical, because he opposed same sex marriage.]

  31. Polling the LGBT vote would be logistically difficult. Probably easy enough to find a sample of 1,000 gay men and lesbians, but how many transgender people do you put in the sample? The figures on how many there are are hardly clear.

    Do you include transvestites like Eddie Izzard? Do you include only those who’ve had treatment in that direction, or those who simply feel their gender doesn’t match their body? And when you’ve decided the criteria, you’ve got to actually find and poll a crossbreak sample that’s small enough that it might be totally unrepresentative, who even if you can find them probably wouldn’t take kindly to being quizzed about their status on the phone.

    The ‘gay vote’ has probably started to melt as a coherent block as the solidarity caused by a lack of societal acceptance fades away. Most people outside the elderly wouldn’t bat an eyelid at someone coming out as gay, or marrying, raising a family with someone of the same sex.

  32. Lack of societal acceptance is fading away is it? Did you turn on your TV at all this weekend?

  33. Of course I did, and a more awful tragedy I can hardly conceive of. My point was that despicable brutality like yesterday’s events being thankfully very rare, the average gay person in Britain is more accepted and given more rights than they would have 30 years ago.

  34. “despicable brutality like yesterday’s events being thankfully very rare”

    For now.

    Nevertheless I find your shrugging your shoulders and brushing it aside as just a very rare event somewhat trite. The left is obsessed with rights and ridiculously relaxed about the threat of islamism. Yes society was a bit more homophobic 30 years ago but at least you could go to a pub or club without fear of being machine gunned to death.

  35. The let’s affinity for Islam is one of the modern day’s great paradoxes.

  36. Mr Nameless – although as was just pointed out on the BBC Daily Politics, the Trevor Phillips’ docu showed 52% of Muslims in the UK want to ban homosexuality.

    I’m not suggesting all those with such very conservative views will be violent, but of course, it only takes 1% of them to be. Hence the hundreds who went to fight with IS.

    I doubt the T in LGBT – or lack of it – would affect any polling evidence, incidentally.

    HH – I agee. In this instance, it really did seem to cause a quandary for some on the Left (as the victims were largely gay and black or Hispanic and the terrorist was a Muslim). But minority groups often hate each other.

  37. I just can’t fathom why someone like Owen Jones bends over backwards to appease the extremist ideology which, given half a chance, would push him off the top of a building.

  38. Forgive me for coming across as trite – the dangers of posting early in the morning, and I should have put more thought into it.

    Incidentally, you’re right about a worrying level of apathy about Islamic extremism on the left. It isn’t present everywhere, and most Labour members I know have been horrified at recent events.

    But there are those I know (mostly outside the party) who I’m sorry to say still see terrorism as a kind of fun anti-imperialist game, singing pro-IRA songs at parties and such.

    If there is one principle for which the left of politics should stand it’s supporting democracy and opposing tyranny, and too often people let the enemy of their enemy be their friend. There’s no excuse for supporting the likes of Maduro, Putin, Saddam or, more recently, ISIS.

  39. I suspect because they’re highly susceptible to tribalism, as most people unfortunately are. They support those groups not on much objective analysis of history and policy, but because unpleasant American right wingers support their opponents.

    Of course it runs both ways – right wingers who support Saudi Arabia, Pinochet’s Chile or Israel’s more unpleasant actions because liberal left wingers dislike them – and that’s deeply unhealthy too. I suppose the difference is that right wingers usually make no claim to be on any kind of crusade.

  40. Mr Nameless – a good post, you are clearly a very decent and sensible person.

    It is strange to me that appeasers of extremist islam are almost all on the left. Logic would suggest that it would be much easier for the extremist right to come to an accommodation with them. Many of the views of fundamentalist christians about homosexuality, womens rights, strict punishments, abortion and the decadence of modern society are along the same lines. I do wonder whether some evangelicals in the US may eventually come to prefer an islamic kind of society to a modern secular one.

    Certainly under any kind of islamic state the gays, trade union militants and leftist agitators are almost always the first to get their heads chopped off, even if they supported the revolution, look at Iran in the 1970s. The conservative middle classes can keep their heads down and survive.

    Incidentally I’m probably one of the very few on here to have actually been to Venezuela, though it was 15-16 years ago now. It was a terrible place then, much be a hundred times worse now.

  41. A story I saw retweeted yesterday was that a Venezuelan mother had been arrested for burning her sons’ hands, after they used flour she’d waited 10 hours for to make roads for their toy trucks. I’m not sure what part of that story is most sad.

    The far right (NF-level) used to be virulently anti-Israel, for understandable reasons, but seems to have dropped that recently with some even carrying the Israeli flag against Palestine-supporting left wingers.

    It’s curious how the attitudes of opponents can change some of the most strident views – look at the attitudes of the left towards Europe in 1975 and now, for a more moderate comparison. Maybe that’s what defines an ideologue – they would rather beat their opponents than convince them.

  42. Re the Left and Islam it is a strange paradox but a very understandable one in my opinion. There is most definitely a tendency on the left, particularly the far left (and I openly admit as a leftie myself this isn’t necessarily a good thing) to have something of a “contrarian” tendency, if something is held as common fact by the bulk of the mainstream media and public its probably wrong etc etc Now obviously MOST on the left are sensible enough to not let this tendency cloud their judgment ALL of the time but their are often slippages and Islam is one example.

    Whether we like to admit it or not (and I am certainly not accusing anyone on this site of such) there is definitely a strong prejudice towards Muslims in society today which has its roots in Islamic extremism. The conservative journalist Peter Oborne surprisingly put it best when he said that there is a “soft Apartheid” towards Muslims in the West and that essentially the distinction that is often made between good Muslim/bad Muslim has very little to do with actions and much more to do with their level of devotion, that good Muslims are essentially secular while devout Muslims are treated with suspicion.

    Its through this prism that many on the left see Muslims as an oppressed minority and its is the lefts natural tendency to stand up for oppressed minorities. This defence does unfortunately though mean that many on the left cannot bring themselves to openly condemn the likes of ISIS or at least condemn them to the extent they should and in worst case scenarios even act as apologists for them

  43. Maxim
    Exactly thus when a tirade of “radical Islamic terrorists” starts many on the left (and I have found myself in this position) feel the need to say something along the lines of “Hang on not all Muslims are like ISIS” and before you know it we’re defending Islam.

  44. Exactly the same here, I’m actually a pretty strident atheist and I find all religion including Islam to be daft and for the most part dangerous, I just think xenophobia and racism is worse.

  45. Here is my take and I suspect many will not like it but still:

    Firstly I would not accept that the mainstream media is not harsh on Islam, the right wing tabloids perhaps, but certainly not the BBC or the main news channels. If anything they are too lenient by utterly refusing to point out that there is a link between this breed of terrorists and Islamic Doctrine. These acts can very legitimately be backed up by the Quran if you choose to interpret it in a certain way.

    As to the lefts association with Islam on one level I understand it because the left historically likes to think of itself to be standing up for minority groups/the oppressed. However what I don’t understand is that they can’t seem to make the connection that a lot of Muslims throughout the world are highly prejudiced/persecute other minority groups that the left claim to stand up for i.e gays, women, Jews etc. The left seems to give them (and I don’t mean all Muslims just the bigoted ones) a free pass to be bigoted while they would not for example give a white, Christian the same pass to be hateful. For example if Sarah Palin says gay people shouldn’t be able to get married and need to be ‘cured’ cue outrage from the left, but on the other hand a Muslim says gay people need to be killed or imprisoned… deafening silence from the left. As another example see for example the reaction (or lack there of) from the left to the highly disturbing survey of the attitudes of British Muslims. If British Christians believed the same things… well lets just say their reaction would have been very different.

    As to this Peter Oborne ‘apartheid’ nonsense, to quote the American (left wing) comedian Bill Maher: ‘Liberal, Western culture is not just different it is better’. Thus secular Muslims who believe in tolerance, freedom of speech etcetera and take what a 1,500 year book says with a truck load of salt are by any objective measure infinitely superior to those Muslims who take it literally and quite frankly deserve to have their ideas from the dark ages totally and utterly condemned and ridiculed just like we should condemn the ideas of nutty Christian extremists.

    To summarise A BAD IDEA IS A BAD IDEA REGARDLESS OF WHO SAYS IT AND IF YOU THINK SAID PERSON IS AN ‘OPPRESSED MINORITY’ OR NOT.

    For viewing purposes see the brilliant Douglas Murray and Ayyan Hirsi Ali destroy the notion that Islam is a religion of peace: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUGmv5TGaTc

  46. “The left seems to give them (and I don’t mean all Muslims just the bigoted ones) a free pass to be bigoted while they would not for example give a white, Christian the same pass to be hateful. For example if Sarah Palin says gay people shouldn’t be able to get married and need to be ‘cured’ cue outrage from the left, but on the other hand a Muslim says gay people need to be killed or imprisoned… deafening silence from the left.”

    An excellent post.

    I might add that what you said here equally applies to the father of the Orlando gunman, who said that it should be up to God to punish gays. If Sarah Palin or Nigel Farage had said that, or indeed white working class Joe Bloggs from down the pub, the BBC and Owen Jones types would be howling outrage from the rooftops.

  47. Pepperminttea
    You may be surprised that I actually agree with the bulk of that. As I said in one of my earlier posts I (and many on the left I know) are pretty strident atheists and we believe in the abolition of faith schools and the like. The issue is (and its a problem that I for the most part don’t struggle with but most of the left do) is that they find it difficult to criticize too harshly (what they deem) an oppressed minority. The likes of Sarah Palin etc are part of a white Christian elite that can in no way be described as an oppressed minority so its essentially open season. Now that isn’t to say there aren’t Christians being oppressed in some parts of the world but they’re not the ones going on TV claiming that gay people need to be cured etc. That’s not an excuse though its just the reason why many on the left feel uncomfortable berating Islam, I personally have no problem railing against even the moderate aspects of it but that’s just me.

    The only part of your post I’d completely disagree with is the media being harsh on Islam. I did a module last year in uni on media and politics and no joke my lecturer did a long term study, over the past decade every BBC story that related to Islam was placed in a negative context. Either Islamic terrorists, paedophile rings, illegal immigrants, wars or (surprise surprise given what’s being reported) ethnic tensions. Literally not a single positive story.

  48. The idea that muslims are an oppressed minority in the UK is horseshit.

    On present demographic and immigration trends, my 2 and 4 year old kids will be living in a UK which is close to or even over 50% muslim by the time they are middle aged.

  49. H.Hemmelig
    With respect that is a load of horseshit. The UK will not be even close to a Muslim majority country any time soon.

    http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-will-britain-have-a-muslim-majority-by-2050/13690

    And that even discounts the fact that even if over half the country originate from a Muslim family that in of itself doesn’t make them Muslim. A massively increasing number of young Muslims are secular if not atheists. So sure a white minority UK is possible but a Muslim majority? there is literally zero chance.

    Finally even if we were to presume the UK would one day be a Muslim majority country that doesn’t change the here and now does it.

  50. A “factcheck” by the militantly left wing Channel 4 is only useful as toilet paper.

    The average Pakistani woman living in the UK will give birth to 4 children. The average for a white woman is significantly below 2.

    Immigration is already about 400k per year, a significant percentage of this already being muslims (even from the EU), this can only increase as the waves of migrants from Syria etc into Germany and other EU countries get EU citizenship and are free to move (or they just come illegally).

    You are not very good at maths if you can’t see how this could easily result in a 40-50% muslim population by 2050-2060.

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